Author Topic: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?  (Read 7034 times)

Online Baruch

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2016, 02:30:36 PM »
"My assertion that a thing that created a thing isn't bound to the limits of said created thing is not a fallacy."

A thing inside the universe, must obey the same things as everything else.  There is no thing outside the universe, because by definition, the universe is everything that is.  So if G-d is outside the universe ... then logically G-d cannot exist (and that is good standard atheist reasoning).  If G-d is within the universe, and if there is nothing supernatural in the universe, then G-d is just an ubermensch who can die from crucifixion like anyone else ... and if G-d can die, the G-d isn't a god.  But this is what happens when you let an opponent of your argument, define all the terms ;-)  Also usually there is the naturalism fallacy of not only including everything in the universe, but also that everything in the universe is natural aka materialist, once you kick out vitalism from biology and panpsychism from psychology.

So yes, if a carpenter carves wood, the carpenter has to have all the same limitation as wood, couldn't be anything other than wood ;-)  The problem happens when this is universalized to a universe creator, not a wood carving creator.
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Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2016, 05:51:37 PM »
The Bible says God exists.

Yeah, I'm not buying it.   And until I have a reason to believe that gods exist, I will be unable to.

Just out of interest....  Do you believe in Baal?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2016, 07:05:33 PM »
Because I'm not retarded.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2016, 07:32:32 PM »
"My assertion that a thing that created a thing isn't bound to the limits of said created thing is not a fallacy."

A thing inside the universe, must obey the same things as everything else.  There is no thing outside the universe, because by definition, the universe is everything that is.  So if G-d is outside the universe ... then logically G-d cannot exist (and that is good standard atheist reasoning).  If G-d is within the universe, and if there is nothing supernatural in the universe, then G-d is just an ubermensch who can die from crucifixion like anyone else ... and if G-d can die, the G-d isn't a god.  But this is what happens when you let an opponent of your argument, define all the terms ;-)  Also usually there is the naturalism fallacy of not only including everything in the universe, but also that everything in the universe is natural aka materialist, once you kick out vitalism from biology and panpsychism from psychology.

So yes, if a carpenter carves wood, the carpenter has to have all the same limitation as wood, couldn't be anything other than wood ;-)  The problem happens when this is universalized to a universe creator, not a wood carving creator.
I'm still not getting it.

I am a carpenter. I build shit all day long, but I am in no way limited by or to the things that my work is. And yes, generally my work is obviously a product of the hands of man, similar to how the universe and the contents there of are not chaotic, but go along a set path with set laws. These laws in themselves lend credence to intelligent design.

Peace

Offline aitm

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2016, 07:41:33 PM »
These laws in themselves lend credence to intelligent design.

I guess willful ignorance is your friend. Where do you see "intelligent design?" The fact that the biological world can lay to waste not just to humanity but all living "creatures" is a pretty good indication that your "god" is pretty much a fuck up. Life is a filthy disease ridden experience that shows that "intelligent design" would prove, if anything, complete incompetence. Your "god" is stymied by a woman's menstrual cycle. But that is because your "god" is the imagination of goat herders based on their understanding of a hundred previous myths they decided to incorporate. That you refuse to admit this if further proof that your god failed to instill intelligence in its creation"s".
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2016, 07:42:33 PM »
I'm still not getting it.

I am a carpenter. I build shit all day long, but I am in no way limited by or to the things that my work is. And yes, generally my work is obviously a product of the hands of man, similar to how the universe and the contents there of are not chaotic, but go along a set path with set laws. These laws in themselves lend credence to intelligent design.

Peace

A: Things made by intelligent beings operate logically.
B: The world operates under a logical set of rules.
C1: Thus the universe was designed by an intelligent being.
C2: By extention, God, who operates logically and according to a set of rules must also have an intelligent designer, who must also have an intelligent designer, who must also have an intelligent designer...


Online Baruch

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2016, 07:58:46 PM »
I'm still not getting it.

I am a carpenter. I build shit all day long, but I am in no way limited by or to the things that my work is. And yes, generally my work is obviously a product of the hands of man, similar to how the universe and the contents there of are not chaotic, but go along a set path with set laws. These laws in themselves lend credence to intelligent design.

Peace

Not necessarily a personality ... just abstract principle ... like arithmetic.  Arithmetic is intelligent, and Pythagoras would tell you it was created by the gods.  But it is a misnomer to call these regularities as laws, as if the universe is ruled by a Bronze Age king.  Science commits the same mistake ... they shouldn't use the word "law" ... when "regularity" is sufficient.
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Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2016, 09:03:15 PM »
A: Things made by intelligent beings operate logically.
B: The world operates under a logical set of rules.
C1: Thus the universe was designed by an intelligent being.
C2: By extention, God, who operates logically and according to a set of rules must also have an intelligent designer, who must also have an intelligent designer, who must also have an intelligent designer...


I get the circular thinking and lack of logic. That isn't what I was talking about.

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2016, 09:07:18 PM »
Not necessarily a personality ... just abstract principle ... like arithmetic.  Arithmetic is intelligent, and Pythagoras would tell you it was created by the gods.  But it is a misnomer to call these regularities as laws, as if the universe is ruled by a Bronze Age king.  Science commits the same mistake ... they shouldn't use the word "law" ... when "regularity" is sufficient.
Regularity seems off to me. There is only one observable universe. The fact that everything seems set along some course and not static, nor chaotic could be called regular but there is no other readily observable universe to compare it to. Law does seem more fitting as these things don't deviate or waver. Only man does that in the face of potential and destiny.


Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2016, 09:26:15 PM »
I'm still not getting it.

I am a carpenter. I build shit all day long, but I am in no way limited by or to the things that my work is. And yes, generally my work is obviously a product of the hands of man, similar to how the universe and the contents there of are not chaotic, but go along a set path with set laws. These laws in themselves lend credence to intelligent design.



Peace
Another failed argument. 

P1:  I intelligently design/build stuff according to certain rules. 
P2:  The Universe is governed by rules.
C1:  Therefore, the Universe is intelligently designed/built.

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2016, 09:42:48 PM »
aitm,

I assure you I am not willfully ignorant like you friend. Where do I see intelligent design? Perhaps you missed it; all readily observable existence is perfectly defined within mathematics. We just talked about how everything in the universe seems to go along a set ordained path, and how it isn't chaotic. Perhaps you haven't noticed the symmetry of existence on every level. It's just a coincidence that nature and geometry go so nicely together....oh wait, that's right, there in no evidence for coincidences....shit. Us (earth) being the only planet with observable complex life doesn't say anything for our uniqueness, or potential within a vast seemingly lifeless expanse. Single celled organisms can be seen to have similarities to galaxies thriving with life. And as far as life as we know it being wiped out by a parasite or what have you; surly it could happen, and all will have been warned. You seem to think that the limit on time that a created thing can do other than its intended purpose isn't determined by what made it.
What I'm trying to say is that all will have an end. And it is written that if man doesn't abide then it will be replaced by a new creation. What type of reasoning insists that a creator must conform to the will of the created?

As far as your last attempt at offence; I donot deny the singular harmonious accord of all the messengers and Prophets, nor do I appreciate your assumption that I think their messages ever really differed. They all had a conscience.

you'll have to try harder to offend me. While your at it you could show some evidence for chance or coincidence and explain away the binding laws of all existence but man. Shit, go ahead and explain the complexity of all existence while you are at it. Explain how energy can create itself from nothing. Explain how a creator is bound to the limits of its creation. Explain sacred geometry. So you really think that all throughout time and geography all man has spoken of the same spiritual things for the same spiritual reasons because of what? The conscience right. A natural thing. That naturally lead them to faith in things they couldn't readily see but that were known spiritually and internally. I'm not saying there must be GOD because man throughout all existence has proclaimed such; just saying it doesn't exactly help your case.

peace

Online Baruch

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2016, 10:30:18 PM »
Human beings can't help to be anything other than human.  Some think they can escape that restriction, but I think they are fooling themselves.  So what is human?  Generally speaking, relating to life as real and non-real ... rational and irrational ... personal and impersonal.  It is a stretch for me to imagine being a pagan, and seeing nymphs in the trees ... but I have stretched, so that I can relate to more people, both modern and ancient.  Being in common relation with people is human, and so is feeling alienated from our fellow humans.  I find I am more tolerant thru these ... walking in the other guy's moccasins ... I am able to relate to Muslims or Aztecs or any others I chose to relate to ... to be empathetic instead of judging.  Of course being malignant is also human.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2016, 01:03:54 AM »
Existence goes from the simplest to the more complex.  A deity would be the most complex existence.  Therefore, a deity should only exist at the end of the universe.  Not now.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Online Solomon Zorn

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2016, 05:04:35 AM »
Mathematical laws begin with 1+1=2. There can be no universe where 1+1=3. These laws are not written by any fucking god. They are inescapable, unchangeable facts that apply to all things. No one and nothing can be outside of them. No one wrote them. And no one ordained the course of the universe.

I was once foolish enough to believe God created the universe, but I was never stupid enough to think he made-up the laws of mathematics.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
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Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2016, 05:52:38 AM »
Mathematical laws begin with 1+1=2. There can be no universe where 1+1=3. These laws are not written by any fucking god. They are inescapable, unchangeable facts that apply to all things.

But math might just be a product of human cognition and not actually exist in the physical universe... kinda like God.