Author Topic: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?  (Read 24624 times)

Offline John Paul (OP)

Anything that exists needs a cause, the universe needs a cause, the cause is God, "All powerful matter/energy" makes no sense to me since we know that matter, space, and time had a beginning, and that nothing in the order of creation can cause itself.  Hence, the universe must have a cause transcendent of itself: it must be caused by something outside of time, space, and matter. If it is mindless, it wouldn't have any power or self-awareness. And if it's all-powerful, then it certainly isn't mindless.

Only God can be the cause of the universe. If it were something other than God, then that would imply one of two things: one, God would have created this intermediary being, which in turn triggered the universe; or two, there is some powerful rival to God out there, which would undercut the idea of God's omnipotence. And this would be mean God isn't really God, because there is someone or something who exists independently of him.
The upshot is: It doesn't seem likely than anyone other God created the universe.

Aquinas also demonstrated that God's essence is His existence, which means He is Being, not simply "a" being.  All beings in the realm of space-matter-time participate in being, but are not eternal infinite being itself, by its very nature, as is "I Am" (Ex 3:14).

The answer is simple; if you say that something else caused the universe, then you must answer what caused that, and eventually you must admit to an uncaused cause.  The chief attribute of God relevant to this question is His uncaused nature.  God is not contingent on anything.  You will end in a string of causality with any other solution.
The only uncaused thing that there is evidence for in our universe is God, inasmuch as humans have been aware of Him, having an intrinsic religious nature that transcends all cultures and history (earliest archeological research shows rituals for the dead--expecting some sort of post-death existence). 

While this evidence may seem circumstantial, think about a house, you don't see the builder or architect within it, but it's very reality attests to it.  One can be inferred by the other.  God is not part of the universe, therefore you will not find evidence for Him in the same manner as other things, but you will find His influence felt, particularly in the moral dimension of Man.  This aspect of our nature seems to be unique.  We do not find evidence of animals making moral and ethical decisions.
The Bible says God exists.

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 05:12:22 PM »
 How often do you crap and fart?


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 05:21:46 PM »
How often do you crap and fart?


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Another theist scared shitless about the unknown.  Because this idiot cannot think and only believe, he/she expects all the world to follow suit.  I really believe this idiot is a drive-by.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 05:32:54 PM »
"The upshot is: It doesn't seem likely than anyone other God created the universe."

I created the Universe. Prove I didn't.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline aitm

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 05:56:12 PM »
which would undercut the idea of God's omnipotence.

so you don't think that the very babble which you wholly believe is telling the truth when it tells us that your almighty could not beat puny humans who had iron chariots......or that your almighty god always needed 3 tries to beat any other army at the cost of always 2/3rds of "his" armies?  Yer not quite "up" on your babble are you?
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 05:59:41 PM »
"The upshot is: It doesn't seem likely than anyone other God created the universe."

I created the Universe. Prove I didn't.

You did create the universe (notice the lower case) in a manner of speaking.  Each being is a universe, and you create yourself (partially anyway).  These universes/beings overlap.  But contrary to Superstring theory, this multiverse is alive and holistic, not dead and atomistic.  Instead of colliding branes ... we have communication, such as the Internet.  Of course since we are not independent (contrary to American insanity) ... you don't create just yourself ... you partially create yourself and contribute to the creation of other universes (beings).  Beings have will, atoms do not.  I have yet to see any materialist theory that constructs the world from atoms, and arrives at will.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 06:01:14 PM »
Anything that exists needs a cause, the universe needs a cause, the cause is God, "All powerful matter/energy" makes no sense to me since we know that matter, space, and time had a beginning, and that nothing in the order of creation can cause itself.  Hence, the universe must have a cause transcendent of itself: it must be caused by something outside of time, space, and matter. If it is mindless, it wouldn't have any power or self-awareness. And if it's all-powerful, then it certainly isn't mindless.

Only God can be the cause of the universe. If it were something other than God, then that would imply one of two things: one, God would have created this intermediary being, which in turn triggered the universe; or two, there is some powerful rival to God out there, which would undercut the idea of God's omnipotence. And this would be mean God isn't really God, because there is someone or something who exists independently of him.
The upshot is: It doesn't seem likely than anyone other God created the universe.

Aquinas also demonstrated that God's essence is His existence, which means He is Being, not simply "a" being.  All beings in the realm of space-matter-time participate in being, but are not eternal infinite being itself, by its very nature, as is "I Am" (Ex 3:14).

The answer is simple; if you say that something else caused the universe, then you must answer what caused that, and eventually you must admit to an uncaused cause.  The chief attribute of God relevant to this question is His uncaused nature.  God is not contingent on anything.  You will end in a string of causality with any other solution.
The only uncaused thing that there is evidence for in our universe is God, inasmuch as humans have been aware of Him, having an intrinsic religious nature that transcends all cultures and history (earliest archeological research shows rituals for the dead--expecting some sort of post-death existence). 

While this evidence may seem circumstantial, think about a house, you don't see the builder or architect within it, but it's very reality attests to it.  One can be inferred by the other.  God is not part of the universe, therefore you will not find evidence for Him in the same manner as other things, but you will find His influence felt, particularly in the moral dimension of Man.  This aspect of our nature seems to be unique.  We do not find evidence of animals making moral and ethical decisions.
The Bible says God exists.

You clearly do not understand Aristotle, nor omnipotence, nor the Bible.  But that's OK, one has to start somewhere.  Keep going, and you may arrive at your destination, whatever that may be ;-)
שלום

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2016, 06:20:14 PM »
Anything that exists needs a cause....

Let's start with your first mere assertion, which, not surprisingly, was the opening of your post.  No need to go further until you demonstrate "[a]nything that exists needs a cause."

Please do so.  And, while you are at it, demonstrate how your God was caused without using the special pleading fallacy.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 06:22:14 PM by sdelsolray »

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2016, 09:27:50 PM »
I have a question for the OP. Assuming what you say is true, that there is a creator of the universe that exists outside the known universe and that creator is called God, how does one determine that the Bible in any way is an accurate representation of this creator?

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2016, 09:56:43 PM »
Let's start with your first mere assertion, which, not surprisingly, was the opening of your post.  No need to go further until you demonstrate "[a]nything that exists needs a cause."

Please do so.  And, while you are at it, demonstrate how your God was caused without using the special pleading fallacy.
The universal law of cause and effect states that for every effectthere is a definite cause, likewise for every cause there is a definite effect. Your thoughts, behaviors and actions create specific effects that manifest and create your life as you know it

GOD being uncaused is not special pleading because the law is based on the observable universe and as discussed; GOD encompasses the universe so to speak, is outside of it, where it's laws, the ones Created for that universe by that force or existence, don't constrain IT.

Does that make any sense?

Be honest....please.

And I'm sorry, I know you weren't talking to me.

peace

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2016, 10:08:15 PM »
I have a question for the OP. Assuming what you say is true, that there is a creator of the universe that exists outside the known universe and that creator is called God, how does one determine that the Bible in any way is an accurate representation of this creator?
Because we all, being of GOD (which by the way is a symbol or representation of the One Creator GOD of all existence regardless of the multitude of names) have a small essence or potential energy that can be tapped into upon negation of self deception, pride, and greed, and upon doing so, with a clear unbiased mind one can read parts of the bible and literally feel resonating effects that profound truths have on ones body and soul.
 

I attest to this wholly as I have personally experience it. To type them out wouldn't begin to do them justice though.

peace

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2016, 10:36:07 PM »
Because we all, being of GOD (which by the way is a symbol or representation of the One Creator GOD of all existence regardless of the multitude of names) have a small essence or potential energy that can be tapped into upon negation of self deception, pride, and greed, and upon doing so, with a clear unbiased mind one can read parts of the bible and literally feel resonating effects that profound truths have on ones body and soul.
 

I attest to this wholly as I have personally experience it. To type them out wouldn't begin to do them justice though.

peace
Well, of course not--typing them out would not begin to do them justice.  Self deception is like that.  You are convinced you have 'the'  inside track on god and all that is holy and good.  You are talking about your subjective view on what you consider to be your life force.  I call it self deception tinged with wishful thinking.  You want that so badly you will believe anything to make it so.  Look, we all live in our own worlds, constructed as we construct them.  You see the world as you see it.  Same for me.  I like what Joseph Campbell said about life; follow your bliss.  Seems simple--but is not.  What is one's bliss?  Is it the same each day?  How is it obtained and what is real and what is what we simply want to see as real?  Does it change; and how do we know that?  I've sort of figured it out for myself and am satisfied with what I've come up with.  But I could not fully explain it to any other person; it is personal to me and for me.  He also said that the purpose of life is life.  And yes it is.  Once again, what does that mean to you will be different than what it means to me.  Anyway, I wander.  I don't see evidence of any sort of god, nor do I need to or want to.  But if some evidence were to show up, the I'd be open to changing my mind.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2016, 11:37:25 PM »
Simple language ... if there is a creation, there is a Creator.  But if there is no creation, then no need for a Creator.  So human beings aren't human, just clouds of stupid random atoms.  In materialism, and conservation of matter, there is no need for creation.  And no Creator ... because houses assemble themselves ... randomly though the odds are very small ... but in a giant universe, even the unlikely are certain ... or so we are told.  Thus an actual army of chimps actually did write the Encyclopedia Britannica.  Now materialism has become more complicated since the Greek materialists/atomists ... but it is still materialism, even if the conservation is now mass-energy, not mass and energy separately.  Physical law becomes an impersonal god, that the prophets (scientists) discover for us ... though they are often, in ancient and modern times ... Jews ;-)

Cause/effect is false, like every other human idea.  Yet falsehood is very useful.
שלום

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 01:26:08 AM »
Anything that exists needs a cause, the universe needs a cause, the cause is God, "All powerful matter/energy" makes no sense to me since we know that matter, space, and time had a beginning, and that nothing in the order of creation can cause itself.  Hence, the universe must have a cause transcendent of itself: it must be caused by something outside of time, space, and matter. If it is mindless, it wouldn't have any power or self-awareness. And if it's all-powerful, then it certainly isn't mindless.

Only God can be the cause of the universe. If it were something other than God, then that would imply one of two things: one, God would have created this intermediary being, which in turn triggered the universe; or two, there is some powerful rival to God out there, which would undercut the idea of God's omnipotence. And this would be mean God isn't really God, because there is someone or something who exists independently of him.
The upshot is: It doesn't seem likely than anyone other God created the universe.

Aquinas also demonstrated that God's essence is His existence, which means He is Being, not simply "a" being.  All beings in the realm of space-matter-time participate in being, but are not eternal infinite being itself, by its very nature, as is "I Am" (Ex 3:14).

The answer is simple; if you say that something else caused the universe, then you must answer what caused that, and eventually you must admit to an uncaused cause.  The chief attribute of God relevant to this question is His uncaused nature.  God is not contingent on anything.  You will end in a string of causality with any other solution.
The only uncaused thing that there is evidence for in our universe is God, inasmuch as humans have been aware of Him, having an intrinsic religious nature that transcends all cultures and history (earliest archeological research shows rituals for the dead--expecting some sort of post-death existence). 

While this evidence may seem circumstantial, think about a house, you don't see the builder or architect within it, but it's very reality attests to it.  One can be inferred by the other.  God is not part of the universe, therefore you will not find evidence for Him in the same manner as other things, but you will find His influence felt, particularly in the moral dimension of Man.  This aspect of our nature seems to be unique.  We do not find evidence of animals making moral and ethical decisions.
The Bible says God exists.

The argument of intelligent design again. Since you're new, I'll remain civil because maybe you haven't heard from atheists on this issue before. Consider this, if creation is intelligently designed, what makes the house stand out? If all that exists is intelligently designed, then the house created by humans is just one creation out of many. Your pointing out the obviousness of the design behind the house actually hurts your argument.

Also, claiming that everything must have a cause doesn't help you either. Claiming that God is "outside time and space" does not excuse him from the rule. I find it much more believable that there is a source of energy, with no personality or self-awareness, that creates universes. Such a non-intelligent creator could just as easily exist. Creationism's own arguments work against the likelihood that there was an intelligent creator. Creationists claim that because humans are intelligent, a greater intelligence must have been responsible for designing us. So then, what designed the intelligence of God?

It makes no sense for an intelligent God to just exist without a cause. Why would such a being have a personality? Why would such a being prefer one thing over another? Humans are that way because of a mix of biological and environmental influences. So then what determined that God would care about human lives? What prevented him from being an evil tyrant, entertaining himself by torturing his creation? Unless you can give a solid reason why an all powerful being must be the way you believe him to be, I have no more reason to believe in him than in the infinite other concepts of gods who are just as likely to exist.

I have a question for you. Why do you focus so hard on the past when trying to prove God exists? Why not look to the one short time frame you actually have experience with; the present? This is why I no longer believe in God. Imagine your life being exactly the same except for one thing: God doesn't exist. What else would change? If you're honest with yourself, you will know the answer. It's nothing. God or no God, his existence has no impact on my life at all. His "answered prayers" were random change, just as his unanswered prayers were random chance. If you talk to God, God does not talk back. If an omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent creator exists, he has purposefully hid himself so well as to cause some to doubt he even exists. And those who do believe he exists have formed countless religions trying in vain to discover his nature. An active God would have no doubters, and religion wouldn't exist because his nature would be clear.

I also find it ironic that you would choose Rowan Atkinson as your avatar. It's funny, considering the comedy sketches he's performed, making fun of Christianity.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 01:28:02 AM by Blackleaf »
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline John Paul (OP)

Re: Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 03:17:25 AM »
Let's start with your first mere assertion, which, not surprisingly, was the opening of your post.  No need to go further until you demonstrate "[a]nything that exists needs a cause."

Please do so.  And, while you are at it, demonstrate how your God was caused without using the special pleading fallacy.

You ask where the piece of toast at breakfast came from. You could trace it back to the bakery, back to the wheat farm, back to the farmer who sowed the wheat, back to the parents of the farmer who brought the farmer into the world. Those parents had parents, etc. Eventually there has to be uncaused Causer -- whom we know as God.

Likewise the universe, being an effect that we can easily see, must have a cause. The alternative would be to say that it "just there" for eternity, which would only raise other questions. Why is it the way itmis? Etc.

Even if there was a "big bang," that too would need a cause. To say it "just happened" isn't very satisfying; it doesn't make sense.

Things "just don't happen." If things just happen without reason or a cause, then the universe would be incomprehensible. There would be no order to it. Science itself would be impossible.