General musing about Christianity and idolatry

[popsthebuilder]

People stuck in their own POV, always think they are being objective .. if they praise objectivity.  Those who praise subjectivity, also put themselves in the best light, by thinking they are being subjective.  These are both false categories.

You're loosing me; how is it that subjective and objective are incorrect, and in what context are we talking about?

peace

[Mike Cl]

No sir, it is you that are wrong. What we have here is an issue with discernment. It is true that not all things should be taken without some form of evidence, most even. But what isn't true is that anything whatsoever should be thrown out as if nonsense or crazed ramblings just because there is no supporting evidence to the liking of those being critical.  What scientific advancement would we witness is all things were rigid in there ideology or theories? No hypotheses would ever even be made. No advancement would be had if we all limited evidence to the realm of what is already known. I am not wrong because you fail to believe me. Your insinuating a misrepresentation of the facts of my personal experience, or the soundness of my mind at the time of those experiences is simply confirmation bias.

I wouldn't expect you to believe what I say. But if you think I am sincere then you mist think I'm nuts. Both are quite insulting but I guess nuts is better than deceitful.

Back to that self deception thing;

I wallowed in the very pit of self deception for years. I can spot it easily at nearly every interval now, and in fact, consciously do so. This isn't to say that I always act against that self deception, but it is plain as day at all times.

Tell me; what would you assume the motive would be for an atheist (one doing markedly better prior to said experience) to deceive himself into thinking that he experienced GOD in some way? And what benefit would it be for him to come out about it years later among atheists to ridicule and all sorts of negativity as if they were some inferior breed or race?

Hitler indeed...speaking of; I know it must be fun to reference Hitler when speaking of the faithful, but he was an extreme activist for the genocide of a whole people.

I am a pacifist for the peaceable advancement of all people and life as a whole.

peace

Well, Pops, you are sincere and means one thing--you believe a fiction to be true.  I guess you can be nuts if you want to be.  I don't give a good goddamned for your belief.  What I do care about is when theists tell me I have to think as they do and live as they do.  You can live and think as you like as far as I'm concerned.  Religion always tells everybody how they need to live; that causes destruction.  And religion has been the single most destructive force in human history.  Still is.  I have evidence for that and not just a belief. 

In my way of defining belief, not a since scientist had a belief and then set out to prove it.  They had a thought; did not know if it was correct or not.  So, began testing it.  If the tests kept showing that that thought was correct, then he/she could advance it as a theory.  And all other scientists could then test it, as well.  If at any time, if it was shown the hypothesis or theory were wrong, then his thought would have been wrong.  A theist cannot do that; they cannot test for a belief.  A belief is personal.  A thought proven to be a theory is a fact (at the very least as best we know it at this time).  Theists don't deal in facts, only beliefs.  You have a belief; it cannot be tested.  I really do not understand how you arrived at your belief.  I still say that in this area, you are laboring under a self deception to be so totally wrong and not willing to even look at it.  And it appears I have hit a nerve with my self deception thing.  I would suggest there is a good possibility you do think yourself a little nuts. 

[Mike Cl]

The law wasn't done away with. It is in the heart through the conscience of those who wish to reciprocate the lovingkindness and giving mercy of GOD towards creation.

Parts of the ot are obviously not interpreted correctly possibly as far back as oral tradition. The Jew was chastised within the ot and by the Christ. The nt doest say to kill anyone.

peace

If that isn't self deception, then I don't know what is.

[popsthebuilder]

Well, Pops, you are sincere and means one thing--you believe a fiction to be true.  I guess you can be nuts if you want to be.  I don't give a good goddamned for your belief.  What I do care about is when theists tell me I have to think as they do and live as they do.  You can live and think as you like as far as I'm concerned.  Religion always tells everybody how they need to live; that causes destruction.  And religion has been the single most destructive force in human history.  Still is.  I have evidence for that and not just a belief. 

In my way of defining belief, not a since scientist had a belief and then set out to prove it.  They had a thought; did not know if it was correct or not.  So, began testing it.  If the tests kept showing that that thought was correct, then he/she could advance it as a theory.  And all other scientists could then test it, as well.  If at any time, if it was shown the hypothesis or theory were wrong, then his thought would have been wrong.  A theist cannot do that; they cannot test for a belief.  A belief is personal.  A thought proven to be a theory is a fact (at the very least as best we know it at this time).  Theists don't deal in facts, only beliefs.  You have a belief; it cannot be tested.  I really do not understand how you arrived at your belief.  I still say that in this area, you are laboring under a self deception to be so totally wrong and not willing to even look at it.  And it appears I have hit a nerve with my self deception thing.  I would suggest there is a good possibility you do think yourself a little nuts.

Honestly, I've always considered myself a little nuts. Way before any of this happened. Could you answer my questions regarding my motives?

Just because you deem a book a work of fiction doesn't mean that my faith in GOD is wrong or even the product of said book. By faith is verified by all religious books not just part of one. And as ive already stated I was atheist, not indoctrinated at childhood, not a believer in the bible or any other writing to do with the will of GOD for Creation.

The very least you could do is stop misrepresenting my stances

1) my initial faith is the product of something that happened to me that I cannot fully explain. It is not the product of a book I read only years later.

2)I do not expect anyone to believe my words, even if they can percieve that I am genuine. I would, and do only hope that any who really is seeking some significance to fill that void inside that is only covered by ones societal and material distractions look into the things I say.

3)I agree that organized religion has, in times past been a hinder on advancement and equity and this isn't what I promote. I don't even insist any act a certain way. I try to explain things to people in hopes that they might navigate towards some inner truths on there own.

I am no judge and do not judge generally, though when I do I expect that similar judgement will be weighed against me and accept it wholly, be it from man or that thing you insist doesn't exist because you can't test for it.

Lastly; are the laws that bind the universe comprised of material parts?

peace

[popsthebuilder]

If that isn't self deception, then I don't know what is.

Perhaps you could show where it says to kill in the new testament.

And before you start in about the sword know that it is about spiritual division and death of self as in wants of self.

This too corelate with all other teachings I have read....weird coincidence again, whoops that's right; still no evidence for coincidences. What are the chances of that?

In a silly mood. Don't mind me.

peace

With playfulness and sincerity (that doesn't happen too often for me)

[Mike Cl]

Honestly, I've always considered myself a little nuts. Way before any of this happened. Could you answer my questions regarding my motives?

Just because you deem a book a work of fiction doesn't mean that my faith in GOD is wrong or even the product of said book. By faith is verified by all religious books not just part of one. And as ive already stated I was atheist, not indoctrinated at childhood, not a believer in the bible or any other writing to do with the will of GOD for Creation.

The very least you could do is stop misrepresenting my stances

1) my initial faith is the product of something that happened to me that I cannot fully explain. It is not the product of a book I read only years later.

2)I do not expect anyone to believe my words, even if they can percieve that I am genuine. I would, and do only hope that any who really is seeking some significance to fill that void inside that is only covered by ones societal and material distractions look into the things I say.

3)I agree that organized religion has, in times past been a hinder on advancement and equity and this isn't what I promote. I don't even insist any act a certain way. I try to explain things to people in hopes that they might navigate towards some inner truths on there own.

I am no judge and do not judge generally, though when I do I expect that similar judgement will be weighed against me and accept it wholly, be it from man or that thing you insist doesn't exist because you can't test for it.

Lastly; are the laws that bind the universe comprised of material parts?

peace

I'll answer as best I can.
1--The very word 'faith' shows that this is a theistic concept and deals not in thoughts and reason but emotion.  And you admit that it is something that happened to you and cannot be verified or demonstrated other than with your word.  That is not proof to anybody by you. 

2--Yes, it is your word and your word only.  I am not calling you dishonest or a liar.  But self deception or misconception, maybe.  And I don't feel any great 'void' in my life.  I don't think there is any universal or god given purpose to life.  Life is as I make it and it contains the meaning I give it.  This does not cause me any grief.  I am not unhappy with the universe in this respect.  I have all the purpose and meaning I want.  I'm satisfied with my life.

3--Here we go again.  There are no inner or outer 'truths'; the only truth there is are the truths any of us decide are truths.  There are no objective truths.  All truths are totally subjective. 
As for organized religion, it has been, on the whole, destructive and still is today.  It will always be.  There is no benefits an organized religion gives us that cannot be done and done probably better, by secular organizations. 

4--Not sure what you mean by the laws of the universe consisting of material parts.  All of the 'laws' of the universe are natural to this universe.  They are the same everywhere--as far as we can tell.  Gravity works by physical principles.  Not some pronouncement of some god.  It can be tested and therefore demonstrated that it works.  There is nothing outside of this universe nor anything that is unnatural or supernatural. 

So, do you believe in Thor, or Zeus or Frigga or any other god?  Why not?  How are they different than your god?????

[Baruch]

You're loosing me; how is it that subjective and objective are incorrect, and in what context are we talking about?

peace

People are devious, not self-deceptive.  Self-deception is neutral, deviousness isn't.  Those who love old books, will find wisdom there, but those who hate old books, will find foolishness there.  Beauty and truth are in the eye of the beholder.  Mike despises any book that claims to be scripture ... so quoting scripture only offends him, it doesn't enlighten him.  Suppose on the other hand, you had made love to the world's most beautiful woman ... would any other man want to hear what you had to say about that?  You found beauty in something he finds ugly ;-)  What he finds beautiful, is when he finds 4 stones, and everyone else agrees with him that there are 4 stones there.  The interior life, violates that from the start ... only exterior life (which is beautiful too) is for him.

[Mike Cl]

Perhaps you could show where it says to kill in the new testament.

And before you start in about the sword know that it is about spiritual division and death of self as in wants of self.

This too corelate with all other teachings I have read....weird coincidence again, whoops that's right; still no evidence for coincidences. What are the chances of that?

In a silly mood. Don't mind me.

peace

Here you go again.  The writing on the page of this book of fiction you call the bible is not really what it means.  But you do know what it means.  I guess that comes from your pipeline to god, eh??? Your bible can be made to say whatever it is you want it to say.  Onward Christian Soldiers....................!!!  The christian religion, the catholic church or any protestant church leads mankind from killing one another????  Yeah, right..................it leads to death and destruction because of teaching taken from your bible.  Your bible is the biggest collection of filth I have ever read.

And just because other writings reinforce what you think you find in the bible means nothing.  It is not proof of any kind.  Just because I can read 200 or more texts that tell us Ptlomey was correct in that the universe revolves around the earth (or sun, I forget at the moment) does not make it so.  I don't care how many people you can get to tell me that the earth is flat or that the Tooth Fairy is real, will not make it so.  Another realm of self deception.

[Mike Cl]

People are devious, not self-deceptive.  Self-deception is neutral, deviousness isn't.  Those who love old books, will find wisdom there, but those who hate old books, will find foolishness there.  Beauty and truth are in the eye of the beholder.  Mike despises any book that claims to be scripture ... so quoting scripture only offends him, it doesn't enlighten him.  Suppose on the other hand, you had made love to the world's most beautiful woman ... would any other man want to hear what you had to say about that?  You found beauty in something he finds ugly ;-)  What he finds beautiful, is when he finds 4 stones, and everyone else agrees with him that there are 4 stones there.  The interior life, violates that from the start ... only exterior life (which is beautiful too) is for him.

Some of that is so.  I don't hate the bible.  Some of it is quite beautiful prose and poetry.  What I do hate is that one takes the bible, creates a religion around it and uses that religion to tell me how to think, feel, and live my life; tells me what I can an cannot do according to what they say the bible says.  And I grow to hate that more and more.  It is the biggest instrument of judgement that has ever existed--it is simply evil what people do with the words in that collection of writings. 

As for an internal life, I have one; and one I am satisfied with.  I find meaning and purpose from all areas that speak to me.  Gibran is one such source and the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary is another.  But I also get grist for my internal life from not only writings, but movies, my furry children, my own children and grandchildren, wife, and just about everything else.  For me nothing is sacred--and all is sacred--I use it all; or ignore it all, as I see fit.  My internal life is mine; and it can and does change as I learn. 

Do I find the bible ugly?  No.  But I usually find those that 'believe' in the bible to be so.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; and for me that is not a static thing.  I can hate the way a picture is, for example, but love it later.  What Pops does or does not do; what he believes or does not believe is on him and only him.  I don't hate Pops; but I hate some of what he believes for I think it destructive.  But that is my opinion; and he can have his--as long as he does not tell me what to do or how to do it.

[popsthebuilder]

Mike CI,


What other word would you have me use to convey my personal belief in a higher power? Emotion works with reason and has been proven to lead to chemical changes in the brain and more critical thought capacities. The mind works best as it was designed or evolved (whichever word you prefer). That is to say that thought and emotion work best together. Negating a perfectly useful aspect of ones mind can lead to many problems, none of which may even be percievable due to lack of the capacities of the mind, either by intent or inadvertently. Other than that we are in agreement on 1).

2) what faulty thinking are you blindly guessing I fell victim to? I wasn't saying, nor meant to insinuate that there was a hole in your life. But I know for sure that there are some that are aware of something missing from their life and they can't quite completley fill it with their distractions. You may very well be quite content. I didn't mean to insinuate a completley objective purpose of life for all either. Everyone, being an individual, of course, has there own purpose. Assuming these individual purposes are absolutely meant to work against one another or compete, is flawed thinking in my humble opinion.

3)what in the...

You cannot admit there is self deception and in the next sentence say there is no inner truth. Your seeming aim to dismantle places that  help people only to replace them with places that help people seems a little inefficient. Can't we agree that neither can define GOD but that the chances of a creative force are pretty sound? Can't we agree that if a creative force put in effort(most obvious by amount of time taken to form said existence) to form life that chances are it was for a reason? Getting a little side tracked. You want to convey negativity to some while helping others. Doesn't sound right does it? You insist that others must be broken that your righteousness may prevail. Sounds kinda like organized religion.

Get your head out of your ass and then come talk to me.

4)why wouldn't the laws that bind and form this universe  be natural?
I've got news for you; everything whatsoever is natural. Just because you cannot explain a thing doesn't make it "supernatural"? k?
By pronouncement of GOD I Asse you mean he creation event, which I'm sure you're aware; is mans attempt to explain things they felt with limited means to communicate it. But now that you mention it; the big bang sounds a heck of a lot like let there be light. The void and motionless waters sure sounds like what 98â,,... of existence is, making that other 2â,,...; you guessed it; the light and or breath of GOD....that's metaphorical, as in a huge flying dude didn't breathe onto nothing to create what we have here today.

So to be clear; you are saying that the universe is all encompassing, correct?

peace

[popsthebuilder]

Here you go again.  The writing on the page of this book of fiction you call the bible is not really what it means.  But you do know what it means.  I guess that comes from your pipeline to god, eh??? Your bible can be made to say whatever it is you want it to say.  Onward Christian Soldiers....................!!!  The christian religion, the catholic church or any protestant church leads mankind from killing one another????  Yeah, right..................it leads to death and destruction because of teaching taken from your bible.  Your bible is the biggest collection of filth I have ever read.

And just because other writings reinforce what you think you find in the bible means nothing.  It is not proof of any kind.  Just because I can read 200 or more texts that tell us Ptlomey was correct in that the universe revolves around the earth (or sun, I forget at the moment) does not make it so.  I don't care how many people you can get to tell me that the earth is flat or that the Tooth Fairy is real, will not make it so.  Another realm of self deception.

Wow.

You are a good gymnast.

[Mike Cl]

Mike CI,


What other word would you have me use to convey my personal belief in a higher power? Emotion works with reason and has been proven to lead to chemical changes in the brain and more critical thought capacities. The mind works best as it was designed or evolved (whichever word you prefer). That is to say that thought and emotion work best together. Negating a perfectly useful aspect of ones mind can lead to many problems, none of which may even be percievable due to lack of the capacities of the mind, either by intent or inadvertently. Other than that we are in agreement on 1).

2) what faulty thinking are you blindly guessing I fell victim to? I wasn't saying, nor meant to insinuate that there was a whole in your life. But I know for sure that there are some that are aware of something missing from there life and they can't quite completley fill it with their distractions. You may very well be quite content. I didn't mean to insinuate a completley objective purpose of life for all either. Everyone, being an individual, of course, has there own purpose. Assuming these individual purposes are absolutely meant to work against one another or compete, is flawed thinking in my humble opinion.

3)what in the...

You cannot admit there is self deception and in the next sentence say there is no inner truth. Your seeming aim to dismantle places that  help people only to replace them with places that help people seems a little inefficient. Can't we agree that neither can define GOD but that the chances of a creative force are pretty sound? Can't we agree that if a creative force put in effort(most obvious by amount of time taken to form said existence) to form life that chances are it was for a reason? Getting a little side tracked. You want to convey negativity to some while helping others. Doesn't sound right does it? You insist that others must be broken that your righteousness may prevail. Sounds kinda like organized religion.

Get your head out of your ass and then come talk to me.

4)why wouldn't the laws that bind and form this universe  be natural?
I've got news for you; everything whatsoever is natural. Just because you cannot explain a thing doesn't make it "supernatural"? k?
By pronouncement of GOD I Asse you mean he creation event, which I'm sure you're aware; is mans attempt to explain things they felt with limited means to communicate it. But now that you mention it; the big bang sounds a heck of a lot like let there be light. The void and motionless waters sure sounds like what 98â,,... of existence is, making that other 2â,,...; you guessed it; the light and or breath of GOD....that's metaphorical, as in a huge flying dude didn't breathe onto nothing to create what we have here today.

So to be clear; you are saying that the universe is all encompassing, correct?

peace

You want me to get my head out of my ass?  What the hell did you just type above???  I really looks like you were drunk when you typed this stuff.  In any case, what are you trying to say????

[Mike Cl]

Wow.

You are a good gymnast.

Thank you.  You aren't.

[popsthebuilder]

You want me to get my head out of my ass?  What the hell did you just type above???  I really looks like you were drunk when you typed this stuff.  In any case, what are you trying to say????

Don't worry about it buddy.

[widdershins]

Mike CI,


What other word would you have me use to convey my personal belief in a higher power? Emotion works with reason and has been proven to lead to chemical changes in the brain and more critical thought capacities.

I'm going to stop you right there.  Studies have shown a negative correlation between belief in God and critical thought.  So your claim that emotions and reason work together to increase one's ability for critical thought, insinuation that your personal ability would be increased, does not play true.  Also, what you just said was bullshit.

Critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.
Objective - not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the very definitions of the words in play disagree with your statement.