General musing about Christianity and idolatry

[Mike Cl]

I'm going to stop you right there.  Studies have shown a negative correlation between belief in God and critical thought.  So your claim that emotions and reason work together to increase one's ability for critical thought, insinuation that your personal ability would be increased, does not play true.  Also, what you just said was bullshit.

Critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.
Objective - not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the very definitions of the words in play disagree with your statement.

It seems to me that Pops, like every other theist, wants to substitute belief for objective thinking.  They will say anything, do almost anything to keep their self deception going.  Truth is all that matters--'truth' (facts) have no bearing on their belief.  (Truth, with a capitol T does not exist, yet the theist will tell you that that is all there is.) 

[popsthebuilder]

I'm going to stop you right there.  Studies have shown a negative correlation between belief in God and critical thought.  So your claim that emotions and reason work together to increase one's ability for critical thought, insinuation that your personal ability would be increased, does not play true.  Also, what you just said was bullshit.

Critical thinking - the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.
Objective - not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the very definitions of the words in play disagree with your statement.

That isn't true. Research if emotion causes chemical changes in the brain. Namely the chemical changes that corelate with more critical or in-depth thought processes.

[popsthebuilder]

How do people not understand that emotion is the basis for which all determine the significance or a thing?

[Mike Cl]

How do people not understand that emotion is the basis for which all determine the significance or a thing?

How do you not understand that in a human, emotion and critical thinking co-exist.  If one element gains total control, then that leads to unbalanced thoughts and unbalanced decisions.  A purely emotional decision will almost always be wrong.  On the other hand, a purely emotionless thought may not exist in humans--why would a person even think of something if some emotion were not driving us to do so?  After all, the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.  The thought of my ex is not hate, or like, or anything; I just don't care--she is dead to me; no emotional attachment whatsoever. 

But, in your case Pops, you give your emotion free rein thinking that is a way to get closer to god.  Yet one cannot get close to a fiction--not in reality.  So, you need to use some objective, critical thinking.  You emotion leads you to the subject; it should not overpower the subject; not if you want a clear view of it.  And so, you need to tone down your emotional attachment or the clouds of you emotion will always leave you blinded.  But theists love that--willful blindness.

[widdershins]

That isn't true. Research if emotion causes chemical changes in the brain. Namely the chemical changes that corelate with more critical or in-depth thought processes.

Done.  I came up with a few sources I am not familiar with and, in a brief search, found only one article which a psychologist contributed to, but did not write, suggesting what you say.  Perhaps you could quote the research to which you are referring and then explain how that research negates the definitions of "critical thinking" and "objective".  My first impression is that the reason you wrote "...more critical or in-depth thought processes" is because you are pulling a switcheroo where you are replacing the "in-depth" mentioned somewhere with "critical" to create a false correlation.

How do people not understand that emotion is the basis for which all determine the significance or a thing?

First of all, who says I don't understand that?  I haven't discussed anything with you about "determining the significance of a thing".

Second, whether that statement is true or not is HIGHLY dependent on what "significance" means, which is kind of context-specific.  A computer can determine the "significance" of data from a telescope.  Computers do that without any emotion whatsoever.  So you certainly aren't referring to the significance of particular data in a set.  Give me an example of something which I would use emotion to determine the significance of.  If I had to guess I would say this is probably another switcheroo where you are trying to equate belief systems and science as equivalents.

[Baruch]

You two aren't using "significance" in the same way.  But I can give an example on how emotion impacts science ... there was once a grad student who had a great idea, that would significantly change things.  But the idea that he would have to justify this, agains existing authorities in his field, made him wet his pants, so he kept it to himself.  Later, a Nobel Prize winner pointed out to him, that he had the right idea, and had he stubbornly developed the idea, against inevitable opposition, he would have gotten good credit for it.  So desire of popularity, and fear of unpopularity, does twist what is presented.  It in't all Vulcan logic.

[widdershins]

You two aren't using "significance" in the same way.  But I can give an example on how emotion impacts science ... there was once a grad student who had a great idea, that would significantly change things.  But the idea that he would have to justify this, agains existing authorities in his field, made him wet his pants, so he kept it to himself.  Later, a Nobel Prize winner pointed out to him, that he had the right idea, and had he stubbornly developed the idea, against inevitable opposition, he would have gotten good credit for it.  So desire of popularity, and fear of unpopularity, does twist what is presented.  It in't all Vulcan logic.

I was actually fishing for a meaning of "significance" as used.

[Unbeliever]

GOD is indeed pro-life as, as all existence or rather, creation is.

All existence strives to live. If GOD didn't want life to exist then it would not, nor would it have been formed with the capacity for life.

The bible, that book that Christianity is pretty much based off of commands it's followers to love one another indiscriminately.

That's rather benevolent and seemingly pro-life to me.

God sure killed a lot of people for something that's "pro-life":



How many Has God Killed?
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
God's uncounted killings revisited

[Baruch]

God sure killed a lot of people for something that's "pro-life":



How many Has God Killed?
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
God's uncounted killings revisited

Life and death aren't opposites.  Giving life and taking life aren't opposites.  Don't be a Binar (aliens from one episode of Star Trek NG).

[popsthebuilder]

How do you not understand that in a human, emotion and critical thinking co-exist.  If one element gains total control, then that leads to unbalanced thoughts and unbalanced decisions.  A purely emotional decision will almost always be wrong.  On the other hand, a purely emotionless thought may not exist in humans--why would a person even think of something if some emotion were not driving us to do so?  After all, the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.  The thought of my ex is not hate, or like, or anything; I just don't care--she is dead to me; no emotional attachment whatsoever. 

But, in your case Pops, you give your emotion free rein thinking that is a way to get closer to god.  Yet one cannot get close to a fiction--not in reality.  So, you need to use some objective, critical thinking.  You emotion leads you to the subject; it should not overpower the subject; not if you want a clear view of it.  And so, you need to tone down your emotional attachment or the clouds of you emotion will always leave you blinded.  But theists love that--willful blindness.

Well...you pretty much repeated what I said, though acted as if I didn't say the same thing in regards to your first paragraph. Then you go on that same line of deception in acting like you have any clue as to what level of emotion and rationale I use. Keep assuming things if you like I suppose. Keep acting like I'm something I'm not too if you want.


peace

[popsthebuilder]

Done.  I came up with a few sources I am not familiar with and, in a brief search, found only one article which a psychologist contributed to, but did not write, suggesting what you say.  Perhaps you could quote the research to which you are referring and then explain how that research negates the definitions of "critical thinking" and "objective".  My first impression is that the reason you wrote "...more critical or in-depth thought processes" is because you are pulling a switcheroo where you are replacing the "in-depth" mentioned somewhere with "critical" to create a false correlation.
First of all, who says I don't understand that?  I haven't discussed anything with you about "determining the significance of a thing".

Second, whether that statement is true or not is HIGHLY dependent on what "significance" means, which is kind of context-specific.  A computer can determine the "significance" of data from a telescope.  Computers do that without any emotion whatsoever.  So you certainly aren't referring to the significance of particular data in a set.  Give me an example of something which I would use emotion to determine the significance of.  If I had to guess I would say this is probably another switcheroo where you are trying to equate belief systems and science as equivalents.

No switcheroo in either case friend.

Critical I was using interchangeably with in-depth or thorough or meaningful thought rather than though with no direction, no course I guess.

As far as significance is concerned, we should try and establish some simple basic truths before delving into such lofty things as purpose of life or existence as a whole. So I will try and explain a little and give an example.

What I am referring to is super simple...ok;  you watched someone drunkenly stumble into an ant bed, and clumsily in the process of getting up and cleaning off they incurred a few bites. This person goes on to kick the ant bed destroying a few hundred lives perhaps. Due to his moronic move, minutes later he is riveted with a few more bites in the shoe. He flips out tearing at both shoes I'm desperation in the sight of "friends". That's it....retribution will be his.... He gets a gas can and strikes a lighter to the fumes which linger ominously over the freezing/drowning/suffocating ants/larvae.

Now I could go into exponential detail on any part, but for the sake of attempted clarity, I will not.

The point is the if you had witnessed this you might have e gotten a few laughs but that's about it. Those types of emotions are not exactly causal, but more of effects. The thousands of lives that where destroyed in an atrocious manner never even triggered a negative emotion because they wouldn't have been significant to you.

Now to conclude my point; please excuse the nature of what is below. It is to explain only.

You have a 3 year old child. An adorable little thing. And unlike many children of such an age, your little baby is just as sweet as can be. Genuinely kind, affectionate even. And smart....soaks shit up like a sponge. There's an eight year old little boy who lives across the street. He is the talky inquisitive type who enjoys you and your child's company at convenient, brief occasions. The kid has kind of invited himself over as his mother doesn't get home for some time. Not really minding you bust out some pizza rolls for the boy and he and your little baby are setting in the floor munching down and watching whatever the hell that is on the kids channel. Your baby ain't too much interested in the pizza rolls bit she is glued to that weird educational show. Good thing cuz you gotta shit. The boy knows the drill...close the door all the way if you happen to leave and I'm not in the room. You tell him again anyway as you shimmy to the toilet room in desperation. The boy gets a text from his mom wanting to know where the hell he is and why he isn't at home like he was told to be. He poops a little himself as he scurries out the door. He pulls the door to with confidence, remembering your words, but in his haste he doesn't notice it gently sway back opened. Well the little angel that was so content with the show snapped out of it when she heard the door, and is now in what she considers to be hot pursuit of the little boy whom she too is quite fond of. You sorta thought you heard the door but aren't too sure. (No time to contemplate it move your ass.) You grab a wad of paper and attempt a hurried haphazard wipe.  (Fuck it, that'll have to do.) "CHRISSY!!!??" you hollar thinking idly that she's there...any second...!!! As you buckle up you're fumbling for the door. You collect yourself enough to find your way out of the single roomed labyrinth and (FUUUCK!!!) The door is opened and no Chriss. You're running full gate. Out the door, you turn towards the drive in time to hear what sounds like a screeching cat in pain followed by the screeching of brakes. The tow truck driver didn't even see her pop out from the other side of that damned can. The brakes were more of a signal of a horrid thing rather than the negation there of. (RUN! Is that...her shoe?!) You're there. You have her. Nothing is there but you and her. Not the truck driver hurling, haunched over the wheel well of the truck. Not the screeching cat which is the little boys mother. Just your sweet little baby, you, and the smell of heated rubber with a twinge of copper smell/taste. She isn't crying. She's making eye  contact and her expression is slowly going from excited fear to some strange calm. You pull her into you a little, cradling her head when you notice it. Your fingers feel as if they fell into her skull, appalled, startled and afraid that you hurt her you jerk your hands away leaving her near lifeless head to fall to the concrete rather violently. It didn't bounce as one might expect from a low velocity impact. It settled. Realizing what you inadvertently had done you die a little inside. She is lifeless now, but you won't accept this for a good half hour when the paramedics finally coax you into getting out of the street with the corpse of your daughter.
Weeks pass and you hate that fat little shit of a boy. And you got something for that junkie ass tow truck driver....you just wait. But most of all you hate yourself. A month passes by and you end your life.

Now in this later example there is no real wrong doing. But there is an exceedingly high level of pain or torment acosiated with the loss of a single life.

Why is that? It is because of the emotional tie that you had to the initial life lost.

So significance in the most basic sense within the subjective individual life is determined by what causes strong emotions. If you had no emotional ties to anything then you would be absolutely indifferent about everything.

I'm sorry I can't explain better right now. I'm tired. But I can try more tomorrow if you would like.

peace

[Baruch]

According to materialists ... no life lost, because semi-permanent clots of atoms are never alive, they just move in interesting ways, that delude the living into thinking that it is alive (oh, a contradiction, damn!).  Materialism is reductio ad absurdum ... useful if you are building a house, but not if you are raising a child.  The immaterialism of Buddhism doesn't get you a free lunch either ... it is also reductionist.

[Mike Cl]

Well...you pretty much repeated what I said, though acted as if I didn't say the same thing in regards to your first paragraph. Then you go on that same line of deception in acting like you have any clue as to what level of emotion and rationale I use. Keep assuming things if you like I suppose. Keep acting like I'm something I'm not too if you want.


peace

I really don't have a clue as to what level of emotion and rationale you use--you won't tell us.  You give us your airy-fairy ideas but will not give any sort of rational reasons for them.  Do you have any rational thoughts rolling around in your little brain???????

[widdershins]

No switcheroo in either case friend.

Critical I was using interchangeably with in-depth or thorough or meaningful thought rather than though with no direction, no course I guess.

As far as significance is concerned, we should try and establish some simple basic truths before delving into such lofty things as purpose of life or existence as a whole. So I will try and explain a little and give an example.

What I am referring to is super simple...ok;  you watched someone drunkenly stumble into an ant bed, and clumsily in the process of getting up and cleaning off they incurred a few bites. This person goes on to kick the ant bed destroying a few hundred lives perhaps. Due to his moronic move, minutes later he is riveted with a few more bites in the shoe. He flips out tearing at both shoes I'm desperation in the sight of "friends". That's it....retribution will be his.... He gets a gas can and strikes a lighter to the fumes which linger ominously over the freezing/drowning/suffocating ants/larvae.

Now I could go into exponential detail on any part, but for the sake of attempted clarity, I will not.

The point is the if you had witnessed this you might have e gotten a few laughs but that's about it. Those types of emotions are not exactly causal, but more of effects. The thousands of lives that where destroyed in an atrocious manner never even triggered a negative emotion because they wouldn't have been significant to you.

Now to conclude my point; please excuse the nature of what is below. It is to explain only.

You have a 3 year old child. An adorable little thing. And unlike many children of such an age, your little baby is just as sweet as can be. Genuinely kind, affectionate even. And smart....soaks shit up like a sponge. There's an eight year old little boy who lives across the street. He is the talky inquisitive type who enjoys you and your child's company at convenient, brief occasions. The kid has kind of invited himself over as his mother doesn't get home for some time. Not really minding you bust out some pizza rolls for the boy and he and your little baby are setting in the floor munching down and watching whatever the hell that is on the kids channel. Your baby ain't too much interested in the pizza rolls bit she is glued to that weird educational show. Good thing cuz you gotta shit. The boy knows the drill...close the door all the way if you happen to leave and I'm not in the room. You tell him again anyway as you shimmy to the toilet room in desperation. The boy gets a text from his mom wanting to know where the hell he is and why he isn't at home like he was told to be. He poops a little himself as he scurries out the door. He pulls the door to with confidence, remembering your words, but in his haste he doesn't notice it gently sway back opened. Well the little angel that was so content with the show snapped out of it when she heard the door, and is now in what she considers to be hot pursuit of the little boy whom she too is quite fond of. You sorta thought you heard the door but aren't too sure. (No time to contemplate it move your ass.) You grab a wad of paper and attempt a hurried haphazard wipe.  (Fuck it, that'll have to do.) "CHRISSY!!!??" you hollar thinking idly that she's there...any second...!!! As you buckle up you're fumbling for the door. You collect yourself enough to find your way out of the single roomed labyrinth and (FUUUCK!!!) The door is opened and no Chriss. You're running full gate. Out the door, you turn towards the drive in time to hear what sounds like a screeching cat in pain followed by the screeching of brakes. The tow truck driver didn't even see her pop out from the other side of that damned can. The brakes were more of a signal of a horrid thing rather than the negation there of. (RUN! Is that...her shoe?!) You're there. You have her. Nothing is there but you and her. Not the truck driver hurling, haunched over the wheel well of the truck. Not the screeching cat which is the little boys mother. Just your sweet little baby, you, and the smell of heated rubber with a twinge of copper smell/taste. She isn't crying. She's making eye  contact and her expression is slowly going from excited fear to some strange calm. You pull her into you a little, cradling her head when you notice it. Your fingers feel as if they fell into her skull, appalled, startled and afraid that you hurt her you jerk your hands away leaving her near lifeless head to fall to the concrete rather violently. It didn't bounce as one might expect from a low velocity impact. It settled. Realizing what you inadvertently had done you die a little inside. She is lifeless now, but you won't accept this for a good half hour when the paramedics finally coax you into getting out of the street with the corpse of your daughter.
Weeks pass and you hate that fat little shit of a boy. And you got something for that junkie ass tow truck driver....you just wait. But most of all you hate yourself. A month passes by and you end your life.

Now in this later example there is no real wrong doing. But there is an exceedingly high level of pain or torment acosiated with the loss of a single life.

Why is that? It is because of the emotional tie that you had to the initial life lost.

So significance in the most basic sense within the subjective individual life is determined by what causes strong emotions. If you had no emotional ties to anything then you would be absolutely indifferent about everything.

I'm sorry I can't explain better right now. I'm tired. But I can try more tomorrow if you would like.

peace

Many will laugh at me being the one to say it, but you need to work on brevity.  I got about 3/4 of the way through that story before I "had the gist of it" and called it good.

I couldn't help but notice that Chrissy had nothing to do with the scientific process.  I still don't know your point.

[Mike Cl]

No switcheroo in either case friend.

Critical I was using interchangeably with in-depth or thorough or meaningful thought rather than though with no direction, no course I guess.

As far as significance is concerned, we should try and establish some simple basic truths before delving into such lofty things as purpose of life or existence as a whole. So I will try and explain a little and give an example.

What I am referring to is super simple...ok;  you watched someone drunkenly stumble into an ant bed, and clumsily in the process of getting up and cleaning off they incurred a few bites. This person goes on to kick the ant bed destroying a few hundred lives perhaps. Due to his moronic move, minutes later he is riveted with a few more bites in the shoe. He flips out tearing at both shoes I'm desperation in the sight of "friends". That's it....retribution will be his.... He gets a gas can and strikes a lighter to the fumes which linger ominously over the freezing/drowning/suffocating ants/larvae.

Now I could go into exponential detail on any part, but for the sake of attempted clarity, I will not.

The point is the if you had witnessed this you might have e gotten a few laughs but that's about it. Those types of emotions are not exactly causal, but more of effects. The thousands of lives that where destroyed in an atrocious manner never even triggered a negative emotion because they wouldn't have been significant to you.

Now to conclude my point; please excuse the nature of what is below. It is to explain only.

You have a 3 year old child. An adorable little thing. And unlike many children of such an age, your little baby is just as sweet as can be. Genuinely kind, affectionate even. And smart....soaks shit up like a sponge. There's an eight year old little boy who lives across the street. He is the talky inquisitive type who enjoys you and your child's company at convenient, brief occasions. The kid has kind of invited himself over as his mother doesn't get home for some time. Not really minding you bust out some pizza rolls for the boy and he and your little baby are setting in the floor munching down and watching whatever the hell that is on the kids channel. Your baby ain't too much interested in the pizza rolls bit she is glued to that weird educational show. Good thing cuz you gotta shit. The boy knows the drill...close the door all the way if you happen to leave and I'm not in the room. You tell him again anyway as you shimmy to the toilet room in desperation. The boy gets a text from his mom wanting to know where the hell he is and why he isn't at home like he was told to be. He poops a little himself as he scurries out the door. He pulls the door to with confidence, remembering your words, but in his haste he doesn't notice it gently sway back opened. Well the little angel that was so content with the show snapped out of it when she heard the door, and is now in what she considers to be hot pursuit of the little boy whom she too is quite fond of. You sorta thought you heard the door but aren't too sure. (No time to contemplate it move your ass.) You grab a wad of paper and attempt a hurried haphazard wipe.  (Fuck it, that'll have to do.) "CHRISSY!!!??" you hollar thinking idly that she's there...any second...!!! As you buckle up you're fumbling for the door. You collect yourself enough to find your way out of the single roomed labyrinth and (FUUUCK!!!) The door is opened and no Chriss. You're running full gate. Out the door, you turn towards the drive in time to hear what sounds like a screeching cat in pain followed by the screeching of brakes. The tow truck driver didn't even see her pop out from the other side of that damned can. The brakes were more of a signal of a horrid thing rather than the negation there of. (RUN! Is that...her shoe?!) You're there. You have her. Nothing is there but you and her. Not the truck driver hurling, haunched over the wheel well of the truck. Not the screeching cat which is the little boys mother. Just your sweet little baby, you, and the smell of heated rubber with a twinge of copper smell/taste. She isn't crying. She's making eye  contact and her expression is slowly going from excited fear to some strange calm. You pull her into you a little, cradling her head when you notice it. Your fingers feel as if they fell into her skull, appalled, startled and afraid that you hurt her you jerk your hands away leaving her near lifeless head to fall to the concrete rather violently. It didn't bounce as one might expect from a low velocity impact. It settled. Realizing what you inadvertently had done you die a little inside. She is lifeless now, but you won't accept this for a good half hour when the paramedics finally coax you into getting out of the street with the corpse of your daughter.
Weeks pass and you hate that fat little shit of a boy. And you got something for that junkie ass tow truck driver....you just wait. But most of all you hate yourself. A month passes by and you end your life.

Now in this later example there is no real wrong doing. But there is an exceedingly high level of pain or torment acosiated with the loss of a single life.

Why is that? It is because of the emotional tie that you had to the initial life lost.

So significance in the most basic sense within the subjective individual life is determined by what causes strong emotions. If you had no emotional ties to anything then you would be absolutely indifferent about everything.

I'm sorry I can't explain better right now. I'm tired. But I can try more tomorrow if you would like.

peace

A great example of something, I suppose.  But what?  You tend to rattle on and on, yet say nothing.  Did you have a point in all of this drivel????