Author Topic: General musing about Christianity and idolatry  (Read 3533 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2016, 10:18:12 PM »
Pops ... ever study the Hymn of the Pearl?  This is the allegorical pearl of great price (I think)

http://gnosis.org/library/hymnpearl.htm
שלום

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2016, 10:48:08 PM »
I don't think I have. I have gone through a good bit of the writings associated to the Gnostics or gnosis but found an the majority to be forgeries. Some were definitely not though.
I'll have to give it a read sometime.

Peace

Offline Baruch

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2016, 07:36:56 AM »
I don't think I have. I have gone through a good bit of the writings associated to the Gnostics or gnosis but found an the majority to be forgeries. Some were definitely not though.
I'll have to give it a read sometime.

Peace

All writings are forgeries, even when done by the original author ;-)
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Offline Cavebear

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2016, 02:06:29 AM »
Well, aside from the understanding that all theists are superstitious in nature (believing in things that have no basis in fact), they all have a tendency to deny scientific information and logic.  I won't bother to compare religious, as they are all equally based on unreality.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead

Offline Baruch

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2016, 06:41:19 AM »
Early Christological battles were between the divinity of Jesus and the humanity of Jesus.  The Gospel of John emphasizing the divinity, it being from Alexandria.  The Synoptics emphasizing the humanity, they being from Antioch.  This was never resolved, hence four Gospels included.  But Paul is Johannine, that is why the death and resurrection is everything to him, and the teachings are nothing.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 05:59:48 PM by Baruch »
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Offline widdershins (OP)

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2016, 01:47:07 PM »
Most of the things you mentioned and the way they are supposed to be used is for remembrance and not exactly idol worship. For instance; I have at times revered nearly everything as being of GOD, and being thankful for such. This isn't idol worship. One can praise the sun or the rain as long as they understand that this praise is ultimately thanks to the One Creator GOD.

I must too say that the only thing dividing religions is the particular names used for the same GOD. That and greed, pride, and fear.


Just my opinion though.

Peace
There is a huge difference between revering the Sun (that which God created) and being thankful for it and revering an object somehow imbued with holiness (a cross or the Bible).  I'm sure if we went camping together and I went to the bushes to do my business and then yelled out to you, "Hey, I forgot the TP.  There's a Bible in my pack.  Toss it to me." you would likely take exception to it.  I doubt your mind would be put at much ease if I told you I was only going to use the blank pages in the beginning and end, nothing with God's word on it.  THAT is what I'm talking about.  You revere trees as God's creation, but you don't mind if I use them for toilet paper.  TOTALLY different thing.

What would be the harm in ripping the blank pages of a Bible out to wipe with?  What would be the harm in ripping out Genesis to wipe with?  You can always get another Bible.  It's not like it's special or unique.  If you're not reading Genesis at the time and you can get it replaced before you come around to it again, what is the harm?  None, UNLESS the object is revered as a physical connection to a deity; somehow made special by that connection.  In your example anything and everything in nature is equally special and, thus, not at all "special".  I'm talking about specific object of worship.

But even in your example giving praise "to" the Sun is actually idolatry, if loosely defined, even if with the understanding that it was created by God.  The First Commandment has most often been interpreted, at least by every Christian I've ever spoken to about it, to mean that you cannot worship, pray to or "praise" ANY god but THE God.  "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is generally read as "Thou shalt have no other gods."  Usually the quote, "A man cannot serve two masters" comes into play.  You may not "think of it" as a god, but praising it is worshiping it as a god, and I think that's more than just a mere technicality.
This sentence is a lie...

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2016, 02:21:54 PM »
There is a huge difference between revering the Sun (that which God created) and being thankful for it and revering an object somehow imbued with holiness (a cross or the Bible).  I'm sure if we went camping together and I went to the bushes to do my business and then yelled out to you, "Hey, I forgot the TP.  There's a Bible in my pack.  Toss it to me." you would likely take exception to it.  I doubt your mind would be put at much ease if I told you I was only going to use the blank pages in the beginning and end, nothing with God's word on it.  THAT is what I'm talking about.  You revere trees as God's creation, but you don't mind if I use them for toilet paper.  TOTALLY different thing.

What would be the harm in ripping the blank pages of a Bible out to wipe with?  What would be the harm in ripping out Genesis to wipe with?  You can always get another Bible.  It's not like it's special or unique.  If you're not reading Genesis at the time and you can get it replaced before you come around to it again, what is the harm?  None, UNLESS the object is revered as a physical connection to a deity; somehow made special by that connection.  In your example anything and everything in nature is equally special and, thus, not at all "special".  I'm talking about specific object of worship.

But even in your example giving praise "to" the Sun is actually idolatry, if loosely defined, even if with the understanding that it was created by God.  The First Commandment has most often been interpreted, at least by every Christian I've ever spoken to about it, to mean that you cannot worship, pray to or "praise" ANY god but THE God.  "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is generally read as "Thou shalt have no other gods."  Usually the quote, "A man cannot serve two masters" comes into play.  You may not "think of it" as a god, but praising it is worshiping it as a god, and I think that's more than just a mere technicality.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If not was your own book you used to wipe your butt then that would be your choice. I personally would find some other thing to use other than my own book, regardless of what that book was about.

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2016, 07:15:44 AM »
Mr.Obvious,

To set a basis for where I am with these things; I was atheist and not indoctrinated and most definitely not gullible. A thing happened to me independent of my own doing that gave me my faith in GOD.

With that being said; the concept of the Eucharist in a traditional sense such as can be seen in more orthodox church buildings was initially appalling, and still now unsettling. I've had faith really since 2011 and only in the last maybe 2 years have delved into what the Christ is and or was. So again, my understandings are relatively limited and somewhat changing as in a process.

Your question is very sensitive and I have have pondered just that for quite some time....as in since 2011. There are many levels to ones beliefs or Faith. For instance; my most recent studies and life experiences have lead me to begin to grasp, yet again, ones own potential and responsibility. There is a standing theme in all scriptures I have read and that is the negation of self and obedience to the selfless conscience for the sake of existence as a whole is actually a means to connect to the very Spirit or essence of existence, that is to say, GOD. Jesus the Christ of GOD also taught these things. The Christ of GOD plainly stated that he was sent from the Father.

I'm going to stop. I could go in for days about that.
The answer is at least two sided and I am not certain as to what ultimately is the truth regarding it. I will say that I nearly take issue with those who say that the man Jesus was the utter fullness of GOD. It seems quite evident that people focusing on the possibility of the deity of the Christ contrary to his teachings, end up missing the point completely, which is the teachings. It is hard to catch for some, but the Christ is within and without. It is the manifestation of the spirit of GOD through GOD's creation. Christian scripture even alludes to the fact that the second coming will be of many yet will come from within.

Okay, so back to the simple answer; GOD is spirit as is Christ. To worship the man that was crucified is to worship the flesh and not the Spirit and can lead to exponential misdirection as can be seen by orthodoxy of the past. This however, is not to say that worshiping the Christ is idol worship as the Christ and GOD are one and the same as far as i can tell. Neither of them are a man. Man is creation and as such can reciprocate the lovingkindness and longsuffering of GOD or reflect other attributes of GOD, but that's just it....of GOD, not the fullness there of. Though the average Christian might demand that the man Jesus the Christ(blessed be his name)was the utter fullness of GOD, you will find from his actual teachings and example that all men are equal. And that he was humble and exclaimed himself that the least would be the greatest and him who wishes to be the greatest will be the servant of the least.


Ok I'm really done. I can't conclude this at this time. Feel free to go into a more specific direction with the conversation. There are just too many variables and potentials in this current topic. I do take my faith seriously and really wish to not speak wrongly of things I have yet to realize for sure.

Thank you for your understanding in advance.

peace

That's okay. You don't have to continue.
All I'll conclude on is that from my point of view, by your own definition of idol-worship, worshipping christ as god because you believe him to be god is idol-worship. No different from taking a golden bull and believing that to be a god.
The only way it isn't, is if it's te exception to the rule and you happen to be right. But then again, The same can be said about anyone worshipping a random totem or golden statue.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2016, 07:25:44 AM »
That's okay. You don't have to continue.
All I'll conclude on is that from my point of view, by your own definition of idol-worship, worshipping christ as god because you believe him to be god is idol-worship. No different from taking a golden bull and believing that to be a god.
The only way it isn't, is if it's te exception to the rule and you happen to be right. But then again, The same can be said about anyone worshipping a random totem or golden statue.
The man. My emphasis is on the worship of any man. It can be seen as idol worship, but much more so is idol worship anything you place are strive for over the known will of GOD.

Peace

Offline widdershins (OP)

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2016, 09:39:12 AM »
I'm not sure what you're getting at. If not was your own book you used to wipe your butt then that would be your choice. I personally would find some other thing to use other than my own book, regardless of what that book was about.
I'm talking about the difference between "things" and "holy objects".  To revere the Sun as a wondrous thing created by God is a TOTALLY different thing than to grip a crucifix with the belief it will help you keep the devil away.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 04:10:23 PM by widdershins »
This sentence is a lie...

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2016, 12:22:27 PM »
the known will of GOD.

Peace
Pops, there you go again.  There is no 'known' will of god.  It is different for every single person who claims there is a will of god.  I find that evidence there is no god.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2016, 12:32:08 PM »
Pops, there you go again.  There is no 'known' will of god.  It is different for every single person who claims there is a will of god.  I find that evidence there is no god.

I am not sure that G-d has a will, and without a will, it gets dicey if G-d is personal or impersonal.  However the non-scriptural "will of G-d" could be seen as pro-life ... but since I see life and death inseparable, then that becomes a bit of a problem itself.  Do you think that a god would be pro-life?
שלום

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2016, 01:31:51 PM »
I am not sure that G-d has a will, and without a will, it gets dicey if G-d is personal or impersonal.  However the non-scriptural "will of G-d" could be seen as pro-life ... but since I see life and death inseparable, then that becomes a bit of a problem itself.  Do you think that a god would be pro-life?
Every person would have a different answer.  God or g-d or whatever fiction you want to deal with, is different for every person.  That's like asking me what do you think Bugs Bunny would do?  Or the Tasmanian Devil--or any other fiction.  Clearly, the christian god is not pro-life.  He simply does not give a shit--all he wants is that the people alive stoke and stroke his fragile ego.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Mr.Obvious

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2016, 03:47:51 PM »
The man. My emphasis is on the worship of any man. It can be seen as idol worship, but much more so is idol worship anything you place are strive for over the known will of GOD.

Peace

Yeah I get that. But from my point of view, unless Jesus is God, which I don't think he was; it seems to me you are taking yet another (hypothetical) material representation and embueing with the personality of a God and making him out ot be him (albeit in part) no different from any other idolatry.
Now, I understand you don't see it that way. Neither does the man worshipping the golden calf. To him the calf is a holy representation of the will of his God. Worshipping that totem or statue is worshipping the spirit or very being of his God. It's not idolatry to him, because to him that statue is as Christ is to you; a (partly) manifestation of God in the physical realm. He may see a Christian's worship of christ the same way as a christian might see the canibalistic pelegostos worshipping captain Jack Sparrow in Dead man's chest; falsely claiming a non-god object or person is god made material in this physical world.
From my point of view the worshipper of the calf, the pirate or the carpenter are all committing idolatry by what we agree constitutes idolatry.. I'm just saying; that's how it is from my point of view. I know it's not yours. It's mine.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Re: General musing about Christianity and idolatry
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2016, 07:15:45 PM »
Do you think that a god would be pro-life?

I doubt it...

 
Quote from: Jeremiah 25:32-33
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
God Not Found
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
Albert Einstein