Author Topic: I Marvel...  (Read 11940 times)

Online Munch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #225 on: May 19, 2017, 08:39:57 PM »
An interesting look back to the early 2000s.



To me, this comic here made me a fan of the avengers, without even really knowing why back then, but it was more the integrity of captain america, bringing up the reality of the fact, why do they need black members on the avengers team at that moment, for no other reason but a publicity stunt.
This was still in a time when comic books didn't concern themselves with the rabble rousing that goes on in public protests and universities and outside government offices, they are just heroes trying to keep the world a peaceful as possible. And I loved the idea of that.

Even when with the x-men, when it was about the human and mutant relations and how the public reacted to them, it was something that was familiar, but ultimately its own thing in the marvel universe. It allowed it to be its own entity, without it being a direct reflection of current social events happening in the real world. Because of that, it actually made some of the x-men stories timeless, because unlike things like gay, black or latino rights, mutants and whats happening around them could always be brought up as a social and political problem based on it being people with powers.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 08:49:09 PM by Munch »

Offline Cavebear

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #226 on: May 31, 2017, 01:41:34 PM »
I'm sorry, the idea of "the early 2000s" cracked me up.  I understand your message, but I'm 67.  The "early 2000s" were yesterday.   Please forgive me the laughter...

I understand what you are saying (I hope) and race and ethnicity changing in comics over time.  I welcome it.  I remember when the Black Falcon simply became the Falcon.  Same with the Black Panther, I suppose.  But I also remember when Mantis (asian) showed up in the 70s. Colossus (russian), etc.  I liked that.  I think the addition of world-wide superheroes is long overdue and welcome.

On the other hand, I don't like it when they change race of ethnicity of long-established characters.  I used to read 'Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos'.  Fury was a white Bronx (?) guy.  Damn the sterotypes, full speed ahead.  ;)  And then later head of SHIELD.  I still can't get used to seeing him as a black guy (and outstandingly portrayed in the movies BTW).  It just doesn't backtrack logically.

Let's just say I'm in favor of leaving those heroes I remember as they were and making new ones.  OK, yeah most of them were white guys and I'm painting myself into a corner.  I'll wait for the paint to dry.

Let there be new heroes in IDIC.  May you have peace, and prosper.

I'll probably regret this post...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline trdsf

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #227 on: May 31, 2017, 03:25:10 PM »
I'm sorry, the idea of "the early 2000s" cracked me up.  I understand your message, but I'm 67.  The "early 2000s" were yesterday.   Please forgive me the laughter...

I understand what you are saying (I hope) and race and ethnicity changing in comics over time.  I welcome it.  I remember when the Black Falcon simply became the Falcon.  Same with the Black Panther, I suppose.  But I also remember when Mantis (asian) showed up in the 70s. Colossus (russian), etc.  I liked that.  I think the addition of world-wide superheroes is long overdue and welcome.

On the other hand, I don't like it when they change race of ethnicity of long-established characters.  I used to read 'Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos'.  Fury was a white Bronx (?) guy.  Damn the sterotypes, full speed ahead.  ;)  And then later head of SHIELD.  I still can't get used to seeing him as a black guy (and outstandingly portrayed in the movies BTW).  It just doesn't backtrack logically.

Let's just say I'm in favor of leaving those heroes I remember as they were and making new ones.  OK, yeah most of them were white guys and I'm painting myself into a corner.  I'll wait for the paint to dry.

Let there be new heroes in IDIC.  May you have peace, and prosper.

I'll probably regret this post...

When I dig into my older comics, I find myself more and more often reading them with my "well, it was a different time" filters on, same as when reading ERB or Lovecraft.  And if you ever read any Golden Age titles, particularly during WWII... yike.  Comics were and are a reflection of their times, so it's no surprise that older characters -- especially those created in the early 1960s and before -- by and large reflect white, middle class, nominally-christian America.

And of course, with the longevity of some of the characters, periodic reboots become necessary -- otherwise by now, Spiderman would be in his 70s or 80s, and Superman and Batman would be centenarians, give or take a couple years.  I don't really have much of a problem if they want to juggle ethnicities at those times -- a reboot lets them modernize and streamline a universe that reflected a different reality when it was set up.  Fifteen, twenty years from now, they'll have to do it again anyway when the titles reflect today instead of twenty years from today.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Online Munch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #228 on: May 31, 2017, 07:18:07 PM »

I'll probably regret this post...

I don't get why? Whats wrong with having a long standing love of characters just because their white? America is a primarily white nation now with spatterings of other nationalities in it, so having a company like marvel having a majority of white super heroes is no more unusual then having anime companies having asian people are the majority of characters in their movies and comics.

Its this whole horseshit of trying to remove characters and replace them 'caz dey is white', which is just as fucking racist. Also its just as fucking sexist to push out male characters and replace them with female, because if the reverse happened and we had male storm or male black widow, you know people be exploding on tumblr over that.

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #229 on: June 01, 2017, 11:04:32 AM »
I wonder what caused the switch in mindset in Marvel. They had it right before. Who cares about the skin color under the suit? I'm all for representation, but changing preestablished characters just for the sake of having more minorities in the cast is not the way to do it. I mean, seriously. Are they so lacking in new ideas that they only way they know how to make a new minority character is to genderbend Thor or give Spider-man a new coat of paint? I remember when I was a kid, I had an idea for a superhero themed book, and I wrote a list of twenty-something characters for it. It's not that difficult to be original, and these guys are paid to this...
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Online Munch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #230 on: June 01, 2017, 11:42:31 AM »
I wonder what caused the switch in mindset in Marvel. They had it right before. Who cares about the skin color under the suit? I'm all for representation, but changing preestablished characters just for the sake of having more minorities in the cast is not the way to do it. I mean, seriously. Are they so lacking in new ideas that they only way they know how to make a new minority character is to genderbend Thor or give Spider-man a new coat of paint? I remember when I was a kid, I had an idea for a superhero themed book, and I wrote a list of twenty-something characters for it. It's not that difficult to be original, and these guys are paid to this...

funny enough I did the same thing in my teens, thought up my own heroes and villains, and they were all sorts of creeds, genders and races, some of them even heroic demons. Gender and race equality for the sake of having it is as stereotyped as having the black guy in a horror movie clique, and we know what happens with him.

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2017, 02:35:00 PM »
Old Ayn Rand fan here ... back in the day.  Did you ever see the movie version of her earlier novel, The Fountainhead?  1949 with Gary Cooper.
Just saw this for some reason.  Old Ayn Rand fan, as well.  Loved Atlas Shrugged and Anthem.  Fountainhead, not so much.  The movie was not all that good, either. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline trdsf

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2017, 02:57:05 PM »
funny enough I did the same thing in my teens, thought up my own heroes and villains, and they were all sorts of creeds, genders and races, some of them even heroic demons. Gender and race equality for the sake of having it is as stereotyped as having the black guy in a horror movie clique, and we know what happens with him.
My own rule when creating new characters for my writing is that unless there is a particular reason one is going to be white and/or male, I first figure out where they're from and then select randomly from the known demographics of that area -- fortunately, I still have my percentile dice from way long ago when I was a gamer.  A little randomness helps keep matters balanced.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Offline Cavebear

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2017, 03:18:44 AM »
And of course, with the longevity of some of the characters, periodic reboots become necessary -- otherwise by now, Spiderman would be in his 70s or 80s, and Superman and Batman would be centenarians, give or take a couple years. 
Oh that's easy.  Superheroes (and all their friends for some obscure reason) age slowly.  They emit anti-age particles too.  ;)
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Munch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #234 on: July 01, 2017, 07:02:49 AM »


the social justice turn marvel has taken, has now gotten so bad comic book shops showing how people just aren't buying marvel comics, that their moving to not doing business with marvel.

there are of course other contributing factors, like the fact they keep restarting series to no:1s. But that just goes in line with the awful writing, the fact the heads of marvel now hate their own fanbase, and just want to force their own narrative into the comics, ignoring what people actually want to see.

It does go hand in hand of course, The reason why they keep restarting books is because they aren't selling, and the reason their not selling is because the writing and characters are crap. When their own sales figures are worse then just after the comic book crash in the early 90s, its a serious wakeup call to the investors to tell the heads of marvel stop with this bullshit, give the fans what they actually want, and stop forcing this bullshit social justice narrative.

I do wonder honestly if the reason the writing it so awful isn't all on purpose because the writers are forced into a corner by the heads, and they have no choice but to go along, so they just put no energy into it and produce crap purposely.

Offline Baruch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #235 on: July 01, 2017, 09:38:39 AM »
Sorry, SJW is all part of the CIA/MI6/Soros Axis.  You must conform or be liquidated, comrade.
שלום

Online Munch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #236 on: July 01, 2017, 10:16:43 AM »
Sorry, SJW is all part of the CIA/MI6/Soros Axis.  You must conform or be liquidated, comrade.

I only wish it were so black and white, excuse the pun.

Offline Baruch

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #237 on: July 01, 2017, 11:00:32 AM »
I only wish it were so black and white, excuse the pun.

The various security services and progressive/regressive ideologues have been LARPing pre-James Bond and pre-MLK since 1900.  It is not black/white ... but like the Tao sign, white with a black heart vs black with a white heart.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #238 on: July 03, 2017, 05:28:25 AM »
So, let the existing characters retire or be killed off.  Let SHIELD be newly run by an asian or latina.  Let Tony Stark die and be replaced by the black guy who as been close to him.  Let Mantis become a major character.  Let new characters come forth unemcumbered by the past.  Let Dr Strange teach a black lesbian his knowledge. He learned it from an old asian guy, let it happan again.

I'm just saying don't mess with the existing origins; have the courage to make new ones.

PS, Love "Hancock"!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Re: I Marvel...
« Reply #239 on: July 04, 2017, 12:03:17 AM »
So, let the existing characters retire or be killed off.  Let SHIELD be newly run by an asian or latina.  Let Tony Stark die and be replaced by the black guy who as been close to him.  Let Mantis become a major character.  Let new characters come forth unemcumbered by the past.  Let Dr Strange teach a black lesbian his knowledge. He learned it from an old asian guy, let it happan again.

I'm just saying don't mess with the existing origins; have the courage to make new ones.

PS, Love "Hancock"!

I just think that copy/pasting characters and changing them to represent some minority group is lazy. They should use new ideas, not just replace all the straight, white, male characters. If the best they can come up with is "what if Thor was a woman," then maybe Marvel comics should go out of business.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky