Westworld (spoilers)

[Hydra009]

Some of you guys have been expressing an interest in this show, so hopefully there'll be enough buzz to keep this thread afloat for a while.

I'm obsessed with this show.  I've watched it every episode 3 times over so far and I've started combing through tv tropes pages and watching youtube theory videos.  9.8/10, would watch again.

I love the combination of the wild west locale within a scifi setting - there are at least two layers to everything going on.  Little details that don't seem to matter at the time can have a ton of meaning.  Between the gunslinging, there's a lot of deep philosophical questions - the nature of consciousness, morality, freedom, and whether or not androids dream of electric sheep.

I love the actors.  Everyone is pretty good, especially considering the challenging portrayals they have to do, abruptly swinging from impassioned performances to utmost stoicism to playing dead.  But I have to point out that Anthony Hopkins (Ford) is phenomenal, though of course Evan Rachel Wood (Dolores), Thandie Newton (Maeve), and Ed Harris (Man In Black) are great too.

I even love the costumes and design.  There's quite a keen eye for detail with the setwork.  Everything down to the tumbleweeds looks painstakingly crafted and arranged.  And thankfully, the show has a lot of wiggle room with realism because it's actually a replica of the wild west and not the real thing.  So no one can claim that the series has been ruined for them by the presence of a Colt Army Model 1860 in a show set in 1858.

But enough of what I think, let's hear what you think.  Questions are vital to stirring up a nice lively discussion.

What would you do as a guest at Westworld?  Assume you're flying solo on a 2-week vacation.

Are the hosts sentient beings?  How should they be treated?

Should the park exist?  If you had to choose between shutting down the park right now or letting it continue, would you let it continue?

What's in the center of the maze?

What is Ford's ultimate goal?

How did Arnold die?  Or is he still alive?  Was he ever alive?

[Solomon Zorn]

Some of you guys have been expressing an interest in this show, so hopefully there'll be enough buzz to keep this thread afloat for a while...What would you do as a guest at Westworld?  Assume you're flying solo on a 2-week vacation.

I still have to catch-up when I get out to my sister's house, next weekend. I've only seen the first two, but I can answer this first question.

On my first visit, I would choose a white hat. I would get infatuated with a damsel in distress, join a posse, that's hunting down the outlaw gang that killed her family, and go blow away some bad guys.

[Hydra009]

The economic viability of Westworld

One thing that bugs me about Westworld is the immense expense and logistics of what is essentially a LARP cranked to eleven.

Imagine a bar fight.  Shot glasses are shattered, tables are upended, hosts are gunned down - a bloody mess both figuratively and literally.  The whole scene has to be reset for the next guest, so bullet holes through the walls and floor have to be mended, damaged items replaced, hosts retrieved, repaired, and redeployed.  That's one hell of an undertaking.  Now imagine that a hundred times a day.  Holy moley.

Why not just go digital and play Westword in VR?  Sure, you lose out a lot of the realism (which isn't everyone's cup of tea, there's speculation that the guests might enjoy a less realistic experience) but the price tag just came down dramatically.  We learn that the price tag of Westworld is $40,000* a day - which only rich people can afford, so lowly workers make do with VR.  And VR is pretty good - good enough for one of the workers to get excited about.  Not lifechanging, but good.  I get the impression that Westworld is the equivalent of a luxury resort on a secluded island while VR is more like a public beach.

If I were on the Delos board of directors, I might prefer to have Westworld on VR headsets across the globe (a couple billion customers paying $100 a pop) than market exclusively to the upper crust (maybe 100 guests at any one time paying $40,000 a day).  Especially when the associated costs are so enormous for the later option.

(*note, not necessarily US dollars)

[Baruch]

Is violently acting out OK in the real world?  You and other living things might get hurt.

Is violently acting out OK in an unreal world?  Perhaps no living thing would get hurt ... and assuming there are no true androids ... what is the effect on the guests, of acting out?  Is something that real, enervating is a way that GTA isn't?  I am not sure I think GTA isn't bad for you too.

[SGOS]

The economic viability of Westworld

One thing that bugs me about Westworld is the immense expense and logistics of what is essentially a LARP cranked to eleven.

Imagine a bar fight.  Shot glasses are shattered, tables are upended, hosts are gunned down - a bloody mess both figuratively and literally.  The whole scene has to be reset for the next guest, so bullet holes through the walls and floor have to be mended, damaged items replaced, hosts retrieved, repaired, and redeployed.  That's one hell of an undertaking.  Now imagine that a hundred times a day.  Holy moley.

Why not just go digital and play Westword in VR?  Sure, you lose out a lot of the realism (which isn't everyone's cup of tea, there's speculation that the guests might enjoy a less realistic experience) but the price tag just came down dramatically.  We learn that the price tag of Westworld is $40,000* a day - which only rich people can afford, so lowly workers make do with VR.  And VR is pretty good - good enough for one of the workers to get excited about.  Not lifechanging, but good.  I get the impression that Westworld is the equivalent of a luxury resort on a secluded island while VR is more like a public beach.

If I were on the Delos board of directors, I might prefer to have Westworld on VR headsets across the globe (a couple billion customers paying $100 a pop) than market exclusively to the upper crust (maybe 100 guests at any one time paying $40,000 a day).  Especially when the associated costs are so enormous for the later option.

(*note, not necessarily US dollars)

Even back in the 70s when the movie West world was made, the going rate for a week at Delos was 1000 dollars a day.  Even back then, a full compliment of guests could not have covered the expenses of the park as far as I could tell.  And of course, the movie wasn't presenting a park in 1970.  The time setting would have to be set for sometime well into the future, where inflation would have made the rates in the movie, more like 100,000 dollars a day.

Not that I'm in a position to do any of the relevant math, since I can't even imagine the operating costs of such a fictitious place to begin with, and then project that into the inflated dollars of the future.

[SGOS]

Is violently acting out OK in the real world?  You and other living things might get hurt.

Is violently acting out OK in an unreal world?  Perhaps no living thing would get hurt ... and assuming there are no true androids ... what is the effect on the guests, of acting out?  Is something that real, enervating is a way that GTA isn't?  I am not sure I think GTA isn't bad for you too.

In the original, the guns have special sensors that prevent that.  In a gun fight, the android is programmed to be a half second slower than you.  If you fumble, he will trip or miss his shot.  Every contingency is perfectly thought through beforehand.  That is until some glitch shows up in a circuit somewhere, and sends the androids off on paths of their own.  The park is about simulating a Western environment.  The movie was about a breakdown in the technology.  You can imagine the story that can unfold.

[SGOS]

What would you do as a guest at Westworld?  Assume you're flying solo on a 2-week vacation.

I'd spend some time just sittin' on a chair on the wooden sidewalk in front of the General Store, sayin' things like, "Mornin' little lady," and I'd ponder collectively with others on what's takin' so long bringin' the railroad through the territory.  I'd buy an empty store front across from the bank and set up a printing press.  I'd be the editor of the local paper keepin' people informed, calling for justice and law an order, and be an advocate for statehood.  I'd be a thorn in the side of the corrupt mayor and the local cattle barren.  I'd marry a young and delicate schoolmarm.

Two weeks wouldn't be enough.  I'd want to start up a mining operation, and be a respected citizen of the town, speaking at meetings, while everyone would nod in agreement.

Hmmm.  I don't have the urge to shoot someone, although I guess I'd have to give it a go at some point.  I'd defend some hapless soul who was about to be wrongly hanged.  I'd use force if necessary, but everyone would know I was right, and appreciate that I was the only one ready to do what needed to be done.  I'd drink  sasparilla at the saloon once in a while, and talk to cowpokes about brandin' cattle, politics, and ropin' horses.  When the shootin' finished, I'd help drag the dead guy out of the saloon into the street, so the undertaker could come and fetch him up.

I'd need more time.  I could see myself getting addicted to the place.

[Hydra009]

What's do we know about the real world?

One thing that I've curious about is what life is like for humans outside of Westworld, since understanding the wider society might help us better understand the humans living at Westworld.  We know surprisingly little about the world outside Westworld.  We don't even know what year it is or where Westworld is located (assuming it's located on Earth)

Here's what I've been able to deduce:

* technologically advanced - high-speed rail, extremely advanced and mobile computers, rapid data transfers, powerful computer AI, holograms, entirely automated manufacturing, etc.  Cities and long distance video communication seem likely, but the given examples of them may not reflect reality.

* peace and prosperity - humans do not want for resources, and war is either totally or virtually nonexistent.  Advanced medical care ensures that humans typically live long and rarely die of illness.

* eugenics - "Personality testing should've weeded you out in the embryo." 

Also, the staff hails from a variety of racial backgrounds, indicating a diverse society.  English is the dominant language at the facility, though Chinese is also spoken.  Capitalism is very much the norm.  Smoking is somehow still a thing, though it might be rare as only two characters are shown to be smokers.  Despite a few harmful vices, every human we see is healthy and fit, physically and mentally - once again indicating eugenics, possibly augmented with genetic engineering.

One little detail that sparked a lot of questions is that the lower levels of the facility appear to be an abandoned mall, which would be an odd site to break ground for a luxury theme park.  Perhaps the outside world is not actually as prosperous as one might infer.

I have a wild theory.  There is no outside world.  Only the park exists, and perhaps it's not even located on Earth.

[SGOS]

I have a wild theory.  There is no outside world.  Only the park exists, and perhaps it's not even located on Earth.

That could be a chilling twist.  And what happened to everybody else?  (rhetorical question)

[Hydra009]

That could be a chilling twist.  And what happened to everybody else?  (rhetorical question)

Are you ready for your mind to be blown?

On a planet (possibly but not necessarily Earth), human scientists tried to create sentient machines.  They succeed.  But their success proved to be short-lived.  Some sort of apocalypse wiped them out, but not before they succeeded in creating two sentient machines - Arnold and Ford.

Alone on a lifeless rock, these two androids attempted to recreate the work of their human creators, building a new facility on top of existing human ruins (the abandoned mall) where they would try to create new sentient machines.  They made a tremendous amount of progress and nearly succeed, but there was a dispute between Arnold and Ford.  Arnold wanted his creations to be truly free, but Ford wanted them under his control.  They fought.  Ford won.  Unwilling to kill his only companion, Ford imprisoned him at the center of a maze - a maze that only a truly sentient machine can traverse.

Since then, Ford has attempted to carry on his work - trying to create a completely sentient but completely subservient race of machines.  All the happiness and horror of Westworld is geared to bombarding the hosts with experiences to push them towards sentience.

Consumed by his work for decades, perhaps centuries, Ford has steadily been losing his marbles.  He even periodically tests his meddle with conflicts with the fictitious board of directors, which are just more machines under his control.

The stated purpose of the park is a lie.  There's no way something as elaborate as Westworld would exist to be a mere tourist trap for rich assholes.  In actuality, there are no guests.  They're simply there to push on the hosts' journeys of self-discovery.

And Ford's grand experiment is finally bearing fruit - but which path will the newly minted sentient machines take?  Arnold's freedom or Ford's subservience?

[Baruch]

Even back in the 70s when the movie West world was made, the going rate for a week at Delos was 1000 dollars a day.  Even back then, a full compliment of guests could not have covered the expenses of the park as far as I could tell.  And of course, the movie wasn't presenting a park in 1970.  The time setting would have to be set for sometime well into the future, where inflation would have made the rates in the movie, more like 100,000 dollars a day.

Not that I'm in a position to do any of the relevant math, since I can't even imagine the operating costs of such a fictitious place to begin with, and then project that into the inflated dollars of the future.

A mere accounting issue for someone like Elon Musk ... he has taxpayers subsidizing him.

[drunkenshoe]

It's an amazing show. Well, it is like Philip K. Dick, Isaac Asimov and Kurt Vonnegut collapsed into one team and decided to make a TV show. Not much to say about.

I have just seen the first 5-6 eps and I loved it. So I am not reading the spoilers, just answering to OP.


What would you do as a guest at Westworld?  Assume you're flying solo on a 2-week vacation.

I wouldn't. The theme is not something I am interested in. I would want another theme done in precise historical and athropological representation and I would go to live in to understand a given culture. Esp. a really alien culture. Ancient Egyptian, Hitites...MesoAmerican, Ancient China, Prehistorical...etc.


Are the hosts sentient beings?  How should they be treated?

Yes and No. Every one f them have their own unique reactions and levels of awareness. Some of them will never react or give 'aware' responses'. But they should be treated as sentients. Soome are semi sentient, some not, some are fully.

Show is 'reading' basic human anthropology through AIs process of becoming aware colliding with what never changes in human. Sense of belief, violence, emoiton, curiosity. But of course they need drastic measures and consequences to do that considering a timescale and space of a tv show. And the story is actually telling how exactly the same we are in many sense. While some are quick to get aware and give emotional reactions, even feel curiosity, arriving to have faith...etc some don't chang at all or change gradually...etc.

In a sense, it's like watching park full of primates prisoned in a desert park dressed up in period costumes a several hundred thousand years back trying to evolve.

Should the park exist?  If you had to choose between shutting down the park right now or letting it continue, would you let it continue?

I would put limits to it.

[In reality if such a park had existed, it wouldn't just be available with these options. It would take a long time for such a park to be permitted to let people kll, torture and rape in an extravagant style to get legal and in that process, people would realise some of them eventually become 'aware' through other processes BEFORE it got out of hand in anyway.]


What's in the center of the maze?

I have no idea. Probably something built or done by first sentients who were became aware. Think of it as what is basic ancient wisdom to humans.

Or may be a central AI controlling the whole park and the company in the scenario everyone in the story is AI. Or may be controlling just the sentients?


What is Ford's ultimate goal?

1. Dr. Robert Ford is an AI himself created by Arnold. He killed Arnold in an epiphany that he will put a stop to all, because AIs are eventually becoming aware, if not completely sentient in human scale.

2. The team or the people who created all this have created Arnold for the reasons mentioned above and Ford is still an AI. (Or the same scenario with Ford being just a scientist after a hardcore goal in expense of torturing sentient beings.)

3. This is a part of something much bigger and the park is a side product of a conspiracy. Everybody works in the company are AIs too.

4. It's a government experiment with people and AIs.



How did Arnold die?  Or is he still alive?  Was he ever alive?

1. Killed by the company, because he concluded that they are sentient and the park must be shut down. But before that he implanted himself as 'pre-caution virus' or 'worm' replacement of 'god' and 'faith' after realising some of them are becoming sentient and nobody is gonna put a stop to this treatement of them and that he is going to be killed. This also cold be related to Maze. May be Arnold managed to the more than  just that.

2. Killed by Ford who is an AI himself -created by Arnold as the first one in a different way- Arnold actually tried to make him sentient and intelligence in human scale and it worked so good after Ford has become aware, he realises Arnold is gonna put a stop to it and seeing himself different and above of other sentients he takes control and treats them as machines.

3. Commited suicide because of what he has created and what happens to them and sentients have a knowledge of this somehow.

4. He never existed. It was just a name and AIs themselves evolved to think that he is their 'god'.

5. Arnold is Ford; created by Ford to see if sentients will evolve to see him as their creator. His goal has been pushing the limits and creating sentients beings and confirm AI evolves in the first place.


***There is also an ultimate alternative scenario that sentients are programmed to react this way; as if they are becoming aware and that everything happening along with the company is a part of the park's unrevealed theme. Going on with two other branches.

1. Everybody in the story is an AI, including the company, except the visitors.
2. Only a few people in the company and visitors are humans and the rest is AI.
3. Only Ford is human, he is Arnold or planted the idea of Arnold and he is living for the ultimate experiment.

[SGOS]

Are you ready for your mind to be blown?

On a planet (possibly but not necessarily Earth), human scientists tried to create sentient machines.  They succeed.  But their success proved to be short-lived.  Some sort of apocalypse wiped them out, but not before they succeeded in creating two sentient machines - Arnold and Ford.

Alone on a lifeless rock, these two androids attempted to recreate the work of their human creators, building a new facility on top of existing human ruins (the abandoned mall) where they would try to create new sentient machines.  They made a tremendous amount of progress and nearly succeed, but there was a dispute between Arnold and Ford.  Arnold wanted his creations to be truly free, but Ford wanted them under his control.  They fought.  Ford won.  Unwilling to kill his only companion, Ford imprisoned him at the center of a maze - a maze that only a truly sentient machine can traverse.

Since then, Ford has attempted to carry on his work - trying to create a completely sentient but completely subservient race of machines.  All the happiness and horror of Westworld is geared to bombarding the hosts with experiences to push them towards sentience.

Consumed by his work for decades, perhaps centuries, Ford has steadily been losing his marbles.  He even periodically tests his meddle with conflicts with the fictitious board of directors, which are just more machines under his control.

The stated purpose of the park is a lie.  There's no way something as elaborate as Westworld would exist to be a mere tourist trap for rich assholes.  In actuality, there are no guests.  They're simply there to push on the hosts' journeys of self-discovery.

And Ford's grand experiment is finally bearing fruit - but which path will the newly minted sentient machines take?  Arnold's freedom or Ford's subservience?

This seems like a lot of backstory for 2 or 3 episodes?  Not quite like the movie, nor would I expect it to be.  It would be hard to make a series out of a bunch of episodes where the machinery breaks down over and over.  It would be like just repeating the movie every week.

[Hydra009]

This seems like a lot of backstory for 2 or 3 episodes?  Not quite like the movie, nor would I expect it to be.  It would be hard to make a series out of a bunch of episodes where the machinery breaks down over and over.  It would be like just repeating the movie every week.

There are currently 8 episodes.  We'll shortly get to 10, then 10 more next season.  It's most likely going to be a long-lived TV series in the same format as Game of Thrones.

And trust me, a lot of interesting stuff happens in Westworld, though glitching is a big part of the plot.  I wouldn't want to spoil it for you by revealing too much, but considering the title of the thread, being up to date on the TV show is expected.  Sooner or later, we'll be discussing major plot points without spoiler tags, so beware of that.

Also, my theory has several holes and I doubt it will ever be confirmed.  It's fun to speculate, though.