End The Electoral College

drunkenshoe · December 12, 2016, 05:38:45 AM

I have always thought of America as 50 countries. Was that wrong before? I don't think so.

Baruch · December 12, 2016, 06:24:09 AM

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 12, 2016, 05:38:45 AM
I have always thought of America as 50 countries. Was that wrong before? I don't think so.

That is why there is an Electoral College and a Senate ... and why the Senators are supposed to be chosen by the states, not by the voters in the states. But many of us are now Cultural Europeans if not Cultural Marxists ... the only purpose of units smaller than the whole nation, including cities, is to act as obedient extensions of the national executive ... provinces. This goes along with the monarchialization of the Presidency since 1960. Also our Native American tribes are semi-autonomous, hence the brouhaha over the northern pipeline. The US needs to break free of the EU and Nato as much as Britain does.

drunkenshoe · December 12, 2016, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: Baruch on December 12, 2016, 06:24:09 AM
That is why there is an Electoral College and a Senate ... and why the Senators are supposed to be chosen by the states, not by the voters in the states. But many of us are now Cultural Europeans if not Cultural Marxists ... the only purpose of units smaller than the whole nation, including cities, is to act as obedient extensions of the national executive ... provinces. This goes along with the monarchialization of the Presidency since 1960. Also our Native American tribes are semi-autonomous, hence the brouhaha over the northern pipeline. The US needs to break free of the EU and Nato as much as Britain does.

Baruch · December 12, 2016, 06:47:32 AM

May we be saved from the ambitious ... nationally, locally and particularly followers of Alexander, Caesar etc who want "one world". Why is tyranny more acceptable on a larger scale than on a small scale? Just as in the Cold War, I would accept, but be sad about ... the necessity to kill other nations, even if it was self immolation as well. Principles trump convenience, and sometimes even survival.

Americans love to blow things up ... that is something to keep in mind, and avoid.

Feral Atheist · December 19, 2016, 02:59:41 PM

We have the electoral college to prevent ONE state from deciding who will be president.

Without the EC, California would be the ONLY state to decide the election, for without CA, Trump would win the electoral college AND the popular vote.

Baruch · December 19, 2016, 06:24:35 PM

I knew there was a reason why I left California, twice!

Jason Harvestdancer · December 21, 2016, 08:16:17 PM

The point about California is rather a fine point, not easy to explain at first glance.

There is an average percentage Hillary got in the states she won. She really deviated very little from state she won to state she won. There is an exception, outside the standard deviation, and that exception is California. She went far above in the percentage of votes from California.

Had California voted like every other Hillary state, she would have received fewer votes than she did. Had California voted like every other Hillary state, her popular vote count would be far lower, and Trump would have won the popular vote.

It is not that we shouldn't count California, it is to point out that California is actually one of the reasons we have an electoral college.

Hydra009 · December 21, 2016, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Feral Atheist on December 19, 2016, 02:59:41 PM
We have the electoral college to prevent ONE state from deciding who will be president.

California has a population of 38.8 million, slightly more than 10% of the total US population. So yeah, it's to be expected that they'd be a pretty big tiebreaker.

Is that fact a problem? Are you arguing that elections shouldn't be decided by voters?

Hydra009 · December 21, 2016, 08:55:12 PM

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 21, 2016, 08:16:17 PMIt is not that we shouldn't count California, it is to point out that California is actually one of the reasons we have an electoral college.

Considering that the electoral college was formulated in 1787, long before California ever existed, that's a pretty dubious statement.

But let's assume you got the state right and went with Virginia instead. Explain why the multitude of voters living in Virginia should be outvoted by the lesser number of voters in New Jersey and other smaller states. Explain why 20 million voters (or whatever the numbers were at the time) should be outvoted by 18 million voters.

Baruch · December 21, 2016, 08:55:31 PM

For me, I would be happy to give California back to Mexico, then it is their problem ;-)

Baruch · December 21, 2016, 08:57:53 PM

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 21, 2016, 08:55:12 PM
Considering that he electoral college was formulated in 1787, long before California ever existed, that's a pretty dubious statement.

But let's assume you got the state right and went with Virginia instead. Explain why the multitude of voters living in Virginia should be outvoted by the lesser number of voters in New Jersey and other smaller states. Explain why 20 million voters (or whatever the numbers were at the time) should be outvoted by 18 million voters.

Right, so just ignore the whole Constitution ... so old, so old ... and just go with direct democracy. Not a good idea. The states are separate countries, the people in California or Texas, don't belong to the same country as I belong to. They don't get to vote in my state, and I don't get to vote in theirs.

Jason Harvestdancer · December 21, 2016, 09:02:38 PM

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 21, 2016, 08:48:42 PM
California has a population of 38.8 million, slightly more than 10% of the total US population. So yeah, it's to be expected that they'd be a pretty big tiebreaker.

Is that fact a problem? Are you arguing that elections shouldn't be decided by voters?

Which isn't the point.

Baruch · December 21, 2016, 09:05:48 PM

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 21, 2016, 09:02:38 PM
Which isn't the point.

No, opposition to Federalism is the point, and preferring overweeing Washington DC tyranny. If they actually went full democracy, and only the 10 biggest metros mattered in politics ... then per the Cross of Gold speech, fly-over-country is going to cut off your food supply.

Cavebear · December 22, 2016, 12:00:27 AM

The Electoral College is a subverted anachronism. Originally, The States selected the President. And The Electoral College was intended to correct travesties of State choices. See Hamilton in Federalist Papers 68. Electors WERE free to vote as they chose.

That is no longer the case legally or in practice. Electors are now party politicians dedicated to their party and there are laws (possible illegal) restricting their choice.

States USED to be the primary identity of the population. That is not true today. It is time to go to direct elections.

Baruch · December 22, 2016, 06:42:40 AM

Says you ;-) Time to break the US up into a more European arrangement, minus the EU and the Euro.

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End The Electoral College