Did Jesus ever exist?

[Baruch]

I don't agree with that definition of predestination. Pre = before. Destination = the end of the road. Predestination means that God chooses your ending--which eternal existence you will have--ahead of time. Some claim that God chooses the destination, but not the road. That makes God's plans sound like a Telltale game, where your choices don't matter.

That would make a third category ... again depending on the definition of eternity.  I don't believe that G-d even determines the ending, let alone the path.  Let Freedom Ring!

[Sorginak]

That would make a third category ... again depending on the definition of eternity.  I don't believe that G-d even determines the ending, let alone the path.  Let Freedom Ring!

Interestingly enough, the average theist believes that god is omniscient enough to the point that no one can truly choose his own path.

By itself, the very idea is illogical.

To believe in it, the god would have to be proven to be real.

[Baruch]

Interestingly enough, the average theist believes that god is omniscient enough to the point that no one can truly choose his own path.

By itself, the very idea is illogical.

To believe in it, the god would have to be proven to be real.

Not really, the believer in fatalism, pagan or Christian, will simply say it is the god's will.  For ancient people, the irretrievable past, is the god's judgement.  Last Judgement is simply when you have transitioned as an individual into the irretrievable past.  As long as we live in this life, the past is partly retrievable.

[Cavebear]

Considering that this is what you brought up when pressed for evidence, yes, I think it was meant to be that -- at the very least it isn't unreasonable of me to take it as being meant that way, under the terms of the discussion so far.

And really, the only objection I have to all this is the word 'know'.  You don't 'know'.  You believe very strongly, and I don't question that, but you do not have actual knowledge.  Knowledge is that which is demonstrable, and subject to further independent observation.  Harking back to my earlier point, despite my near certainty that there is other intelligent life in this galaxy, and regardless of how certain I am of it, I would never say I 'know' it's out there.

Well put.  The claim of certainity does not match any actual evidence of the existence of a deity.

[Baruch]

The Buddha says, your claim of certainty ... that you exist ... isn't sufficient.

[Cavebear]

The Buddha says, your claim of certainty ... that you exist ... isn't sufficient.

And that's why I am not a buddhist...

[Blackleaf]

The Buddha says, your claim of certainty ... that you exist ... isn't sufficient.

Descartes said, "I think, therefor I am." The ability to question one's existence alone is evidence that one exists. It's everyone else who's existence I cannot really prove. This is why I've been considering solipsism for years now.

[Cavebear]

Descartes said, "I think, therefor I am." The ability to question one's existence alone is evidence that one exists. It's everyone else who's existence I cannot really prove. This is why I've been considering solipsism for years now.

Well maybe  I can save you some slight effort.  I'm pretty sure that *I* exist.  And I'm willing to grant (provisionally of course) that you exist.  So let's consider that all here but Baruch exist.    Would that work?  Would that work for YOU.  Assuming *I* exist?

[aitm]

t's everyone else who's existence I cannot really prove.

I have always tended to the Occam's razor strategy with this. If I am in a matrix style existence and some nefarious entity is using me for its means, why all the grand detail? Everything would take at least "some" amount of energy to create. All the minutiue involved, when the same result could be had if my "life" was that of a mole, or a worm. Think of the cost saved if the president of the "company" was told...Gerald's new program eliminates 20 billion in new design up grades by simply making the existence of the next generation asexual worms.....
KA-CHING!!!

[Blackleaf]

Well maybe  I can save you some slight effort.  I'm pretty sure that *I* exist.  And I'm willing to grant (provisionally of course) that you exist.  So let's consider that all here but Baruch exist.    Would that work?  Would that work for YOU.  Assuming *I* exist?

A person can tell that they are themselves a thinking being. However, a person cannot tell that another has thought independent of their own. Even if I could somehow connect my brain to yours and see your thoughts, how would I know that your thoughts were not just extensions of my own, an illusion to make the world around me seem real?

[Baruch]

Descartes said, "I think, therefor I am." The ability to question one's existence alone is evidence that one exists. It's everyone else who's existence I cannot really prove. This is why I've been considering solipsism for years now.

If you are a solipsist, you can stop posting to yourself on the Internet now ;-)

[Baruch]

I have always tended to the Occam's razor strategy with this. If I am in a matrix style existence and some nefarious entity is using me for its means, why all the grand detail? Everything would take at least "some" amount of energy to create. All the minutiue involved, when the same result could be had if my "life" was that of a mole, or a worm. Think of the cost saved if the president of the "company" was told...Gerald's new program eliminates 20 billion in new design up grades by simply making the existence of the next generation asexual worms.....
KA-CHING!!!

You are a dog, with delusions of being human ;-)

[Blackleaf]

I have always tended to the Occam's razor strategy with this. If I am in a matrix style existence and some nefarious entity is using me for its means, why all the grand detail? Everything would take at least "some" amount of energy to create. All the minutiue involved, when the same result could be had if my "life" was that of a mole, or a worm. Think of the cost saved if the president of the "company" was told...Gerald's new program eliminates 20 billion in new design up grades by simply making the existence of the next generation asexual worms.....
KA-CHING!!!

I don't know if it's still solipsism if there is another being creating the illusion of the world. It's also possible that the person experiencing the world also created it. If I could manipulate the world somehow, like I can in my dreams, it would confirm it. But I haven't been able to do that yet. On the other hand, I have experienced some strange coincidences before, similar to what one might expect from a "glitch in the Matrix." For example, one time I had a song suddenly pop into my head, just before I scrolled down a page and saw the song's name in a forum's title. Another time, I was waiting for the end of my shift, and the clock on the computer seemed to be stuck for a while before suddenly jumping ahead ten minutes.

The one thing that keeps me from embracing solipsism is that I realize that whether or not it is true, it makes no difference. If I don't eat, I'll feel hungry. If I don't sleep, I'll get tired. If I don't live by the rules of this world, I will suffer for it, so I might as well play along.

[Blackleaf]

If you are a solipsist, you can stop posting to yourself on the Internet now ;-)

Do you not often find the answer you're looking for as soon as you speak it out loud?

[Baruch]

Do you not often find the answer you're looking for as soon as you speak it out loud?

Yes, I am my own Oracle, but I am not the CEO of Oracle.  Too bad ;-(