Did Jesus ever exist?

[popsthebuilder]

Glad you cleared up what your definition of free will your going with, as that greatly helps.

Even though I just stated that science does not say the same thing you are saying I will just go with the idea that you are mostly correct. So we do have constraints you just admitted it whether you think you did or not. So we have the freedom to choose, I'll agree that we do, however most people are not really making choices, they are just living off instincts and nee jerk reactions. I can prove it. Go up to any black person and call them a nigger. 9 times out of ten they will get offended. That is their own programing. For a person to have free will they have to have constant awareness and also be open to the idea that things may not have been as they perceived. You constantly have to be searching for other choices that are not the perceived choices. AKA thinking out side of the box.

But that isn't how humans behave on a regular basis. Science has demonstrated this over the years through psychological testing. A person can receive cognitive therapy which helps with awareness and challenging oneself to keep searching for the truth beyond what instinct would have us believe. Aka the thinking patterns we were programed with. Having so called free will is hard work, and takes a constant level of effort. Even I can not make every decision this way. Our instincts often guide is in a response that is safe or healthy, unless like I said our patterns and programming were healthy from the start. If you weren't lucky enough to be born with healthy responses for what ever reason then it takes hard work to reprogram your self. But call a spade a spade,  Either way we are responding using some kind of programming. Not free will.



And we keep explaining to you that belief in god is not exactly a choice. I can't force my self to believe in something when I simply don't. Just as you can't force yourself into not believing. Therefor no matter how much you want it to be, belief in god is not a choice. You may have reasons why you do or don't believe but the belief it's self is not a conscious effort. You just do it as part of your psychological instincts.

If you still don't believe me try to stop believing in god for 10 minutes. Honestly not believing. You can't because to honestly not believe you likely wouldn't just jump straight back into believing so easily. You still believe that whole time even if you convince your self you don't.

It's the same with homosexuality. Some people seem to think it's a choice. Well then if it is a choice choose to be homosexual for a day or any amount of time. You can't. Because it's not a choice.

I'm probably wasting my time as you are determined to believe your view point and haven't even considered that anything I said in the previous post had any truth to it. You rejected it right away. How much thought did you put into that rejection? Was it you rejecting it? Or was it your psychology programing you into rejecting?

food for thought.

Regardless of if people in general actually use freedom of choice or free will to their fullest extent, it is still true that we all have e that potential if we have normally functioning minds. Even if enslaved and forced to do things you found terrible, doing them is still a choice. I don't deny that sheeple in general do exactly what they are preprogrammed by societal norms to do, though I'm not sure that is exactly what you were saying, it is close. People in general do not act according to the selfless conscience or Holy (different) Spirit. They according to their own greedy inclinations. To not do such takes not only great levels of retrospect and introspection, but too a generally selfless Spirit. Attaining to all these simultaneously at all times in order to actually act according to them only is indeed seemingly exceedingly difficult task.

As far as someone's natural preprogramming being flawed; that would either be a case of those lacking full capacities on some level, or just not ever being honest with themselves. I believe the conscience to be in all of us, and too the potential to actively remove self from equations allowing for some form of objective morality. Who else does this? Freakin few I'm sure. How many have the potential to ne capable? Pretty much all of them I am nearly sure as well.

Why do you say you attempt to tell me belief isn't a choice? I never said it was. Being faithful is a choice....Belief in a thing really isn't.

Contrary to your own opinion; it isn't that I do not listen to your words, it's more that these things have all been gone over quite often before. What point is it that you are trying to change me on? Free will? It is a funny thing and perhaps the word free isn't wholly accurate, but we have the potential to choice....always.


If I have quick short responses then that's all I needed to accurately convey my message. If long and wordy, my attempts are most likely not exactly successes. I do find is agreeing on multiple points though. That is a good thing.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

Deflection. You can't dispute the verses which clearly say that god ordains our every move, so that's all you can do. Neither can you dispute scientific evidence that shows that our decisions are determined by biological and environmental factors, and not an self-driven invisible soul.

Allowing us options is rather a pointless gesture if our decisions were made for us before we were even born. If he tells us to choose to believe in him, but then hardens the hearts of those he doesn't want to believe, then that choice was not really a choice. Think about it. God's attributes are incompatible with free will. Knowledge of our every decision means our choices are set in stone. Combined with complete power, that means that god not only knew our decisions ahead of time, but had the power to create the situations in which we would make those decisions. He could have created a universe where humans chose never to do evil. Our choices are part of his design.

God's plan and his providence are both concepts dependent on god controlling us like puppets as well. What's the point of having a "plan" for our lives if he plays no role in determining our decisions? "Oops! I planned for Jimmy to be a doctor, but he chose instead to be an artist. Time to go back to the drawing board!" And how could God be credited for providing for us, or "using" people for his will for the benefit of his people, if he does not have control over us? If we have free will, then God is taking credit for things he had nothing to do with. With free will, both of these concepts are completely pointless.

And God's behavior in the Bible shows no signs of interest in free will either. He frequently puts words in people's mouths, hardens hearts to make them unable to accept his messages so that he can punish them later, causes people to succeed, causes people to fail, and even chooses people before birth for heaven or hell by no criteria other than his own arbitrary will to do as he pleases. Read Romans 9, where Paul describes how God regards us as pots, and himself the potter. He designs some to be destroyed and others to be saved. We are his playthings, and we have no right to argue because...well, he made us!

Actually I have a quite Calvinistic view myself. I openly admit that I cannot explain in logical terms what I believe when it comes to all things being ordained and free will. I believe both in short. I believe the intellect and power of GOD to be that which enables our somewhat percievable freedom of choice, and still ultimately whose will is done too. It is as if with every choice or action a new set of variables is opened, including the opportunity to do good or right, but each still ultimately leading one towards the will of GOD for that individual. I also believe that he'll is not eternal torment but eternal death.

Can you not grasp what a decision is? Again; we should all, as adults, easily grasp that we cannot freely do things that we are otherwise limited from doing. We can freely think things that are less limited, but still, even thoughts are limited to the capacities of ones mind. So please; stop attempting to argue with an adult at the level of the adolescent. Or continue I suppose, maybe it will help you or another in some fashion at some time....Who knows....

You mention hearts being hardened unto death by the will of GOD. And to this I reply that all things happen for a reason, and we know not who is to be destroyed or return to that good source. But if GOD's will is done through those whom we think had or have a hardened heart then their destination will be judged by GOD and GOD, being just and merciful, will surely not destroy that thing that did carry out IT's will.

Perhaps you've never read the part about all sins being forgiven men, or the part about it being GOD's will for all to come to salvation.

Knowledge of every choice beforehand is not synonymous with us not having a choice. Just because GOD knows what will happen doesn't mean it can't happen another way too. If there are options would an all knowing thing be aware of them all? And does that knowledge mean there aren't choices? Not from the limited perspective of the one making the choice; regardless of GOD knowing of your options and which you will choose and the outcome of such and so forth and so on, that doesn't take away the choice from the individuals perspective. I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense. Basically I know I have choices because I have made and do make them. But I know all to be ordained due to my experience.

Again I admit two things; that I cannot logically explain my stance in regards to freedom of choice and destiny, and that I do not completely understand it myself at this time.



faith in selfless unity for good

[aitm]

Just because GOD knows what will happen doesn't mean it can't happen another way too.

Again I admit two things; .... that I do not completely understand it myself at this time.

In a nut shell, the complete idiocy of xian thought.  God is omniscient...and then again......maybe not...how the fuck would I know?

And they wonder why we consider them stupid.

[popsthebuilder]

In a nut shell, the complete idiocy of xian thought.  God is omniscient...and then again......maybe not...how the fuck would I know?

And they wonder why we consider them stupid.

Wow. You can't grasp the fact that finite intellectual capacities cannot fully understand or description infinite capacities accurately.

You really have little business debating anyone. You only attempt to belittle and offend for you whole strategy. How very boring and disingenuous.

faith in selfless unity for good

[Mike Cl]

Wow. You can't grasp the fact that finite intellectual capacities cannot fully understand or description infinite capacities accurately.

You are free to feel anyway you want.  What is frustrating is that, from our perspective, you are trying to 'fully understand' a fiction.  There is no one or nothing that has infinite capabilities.  You are asking us to accept that trying to figure out what Santa's full capacities really are.  It's a fiction, both god and Santa.  You are on a site that does not see what you do--so, what you are suggesting as truth and sanity and goodness, we see as simply 'bullshit' that has been spread from forever and is simply a fiction used to control people.

[Baruch]

Pops - You may be Calvinist, but I am Hobbesian ;-)

[popsthebuilder]

Pops - You may be Calvinist, but I am Hobbesian ;-)

Not that I'm exactly Calvinist. Is that what you where getting at? Surely you aren't exactly Hobbesian. That just doesn't sound accurate at all.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[Baruch]

Not that I'm exactly Calvinist. Is that what you where getting at? Surely you aren't exactly Hobbesian. That just doesn't sound accurate at all.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Calvin & Hobbs ... got you!

[popsthebuilder]

You are free to feel anyway you want.  What is frustrating is that, from our perspective, you are trying to 'fully understand' a fiction.  There is no one or nothing that has infinite capabilities.  You are asking us to accept that trying to figure out what Santa's full capacities really are.  It's a fiction, both god and Santa.  You are on a site that does not see what you do--so, what you are suggesting as truth and sanity and goodness, we see as simply 'bullshit' that has been spread from forever and is simply a fiction used to control people.

Yes yes I've heard; wrong crowd...I'll choose to believe it is the right one along with other ones. Surely the most challenging.

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

Calvin & Hobbs ... got you!

Damn....tricked again!

My father actually enjoyed that comic if I remember correctly.

faith in selfless unity for good

[aitm]

Wow. You can't grasp the fact that finite intellectual ...........blah blah

Just because GOD knows what will happen doesn't mean it can't happen another way too.

Just because GOD knows what will happen..

Just because GOD knows

yeah...I am the one who should avoid debating....LOLOL...your god is apparently, a fucking idiot as a god.

Oooohh, my god knows all and everything that happens is because of gawd.....unless something else happens,,then that is gawd also....unless what god knew would happen doesn't happen that way..then he did it that way so he wouldn't know it was going to happen that way so he planned it to happen so he wouldn't know it......


yeah...right...LOLOL

yer an idiot.

[Blackleaf]

Actually I have a quite Calvinistic view myself. I openly admit that I cannot explain in logical terms what I believe when it comes to all things being ordained and free will. I believe both in short. I believe the intellect and power of GOD to be that which enables our somewhat percievable freedom of choice, and still ultimately whose will is done too. It is as if with every choice or action a new set of variables is opened, including the opportunity to do good or right, but each still ultimately leading one towards the will of GOD for that individual. I also believe that he'll is not eternal torment but eternal death.

I was a Calvinist when I was a Christian. I'm pretty sure free will is incompatible with predetermination, unless you conveniently define free will to mean something completely different to what most people mean by it. My pastor at the Baptist church I attended said that free will meant that God did not physically force us into making decisions, even if he did predetermine our choices through other means. Problem with that is that free will is made into a meaningless term. Do we say that characters in a novel have free will? No. A good writer will keep a character consistent to make them seem realistic, but the characters' lives are all in the hands of the writer.

Can you not grasp what a decision is? Again; we should all, as adults, easily grasp that we cannot freely do things that we are otherwise limited from doing. We can freely think things that are less limited, but still, even thoughts are limited to the capacities of ones mind. So please; stop attempting to argue with an adult at the level of the adolescent. Or continue I suppose, maybe it will help you or another in some fashion at some time....Who knows....

Stop trying to talk down to me. It's pathetic. You and I both know that my contributions are intelligent. Which is more than can be said for yours sometimes.

You're deflecting. I never said that we required the power to flap our arms and fly in order to have free will. I said that if God preordains our every move, then our choices are not really ours to make. Either our lives are ordained by God or they are determined by a combination of biological and environmental factors. All of these things are forces outside of our control. Free will is meaningless in religion and it is meaningless in the real world. It is a myth; a concept invented by the church well after the conception of the Bible in order to excuse God for all of the evil in the world. And it can easily be torn apart under scrutiny, yet continues to be believed by many of the unthinking masses.

You mention hearts being hardened unto death by the will of GOD. And to this I reply that all things happen for a reason, and we know not who is to be destroyed or return to that good source. But if GOD's will is done through those whom we think had or have a hardened heart then their destination will be judged by GOD and GOD, being just and merciful, will surely not destroy that thing that did carry out IT's will.

Again, read Romans 9. It contradicts everything you just said. God created the pharaoh to be destroyed so that he could show off his power. He has no qualms over punishing people for disobeying them, even when he hardens their hearts to ensure that they could do nothing else but disobey him.

Perhaps you've never read the part about all sins being forgiven men, or the part about it being GOD's will for all to come to salvation.

The Bible contradicts itself in many areas, including the few places where God is painted as a benevolent being who just wants everyone to be at peace and be happy. He is said in many places to be unchanging, but he changes his mind after Moses speaks some sense into him. He's said to have all power in many places in the Bible, yet he's powerless against armies with iron chariots. He both punishes the son for the sins of the father and does not do that, depending on where you read the Bible. However, when it comes to free will, there are many verses which directly say that God ordains our every move, or say that he predestines us for Heaven or Hell. There are zero verses which directly say that we have free will. That concept, at best, can only be claimed to be implied.

Knowledge of every choice beforehand is not synonymous with us not having a choice. Just because GOD knows what will happen doesn't mean it can't happen another way too.

I've already addressed this... Before creating the world, if God knew every possible universe that he could create, and if he had power to make any universe he wanted, he could have easily created a universe in which everyone never chose to do evil. He didn't have to make us robots in order to keep us from doing evil. He just needed to get the ball rolling in just the right way. And yet, with his infinite power and knowledge, he chose to create a universe full of evil, in which the vast majority of humans and 1/3 of all angels would go to Hell.

Again I admit two things; that I cannot logically explain my stance in regards to freedom of choice and destiny, and that I do not completely understand it myself at this time.

faith in selfless unity for good

That's fine. Believe what you want, but don't pretend that you can defend your beliefs when you can't.

[Blackleaf]

Wow. You can't grasp the fact that finite intellectual capacities cannot fully understand or description infinite capacities accurately.

You really have little business debating anyone. You only attempt to belittle and offend for you whole strategy. How very boring and disingenuous.

faith in selfless unity for good

He just pointed out a glaring inconsistency in your claims, and all you can do is claim that HE is the one intellectually lacking? Seriously, Pops. You're like a child arguing trying to tell an astronaut that the moon is made of cheese.

[Baruch]

Predetermination vs predestination.  With predetermination, nobody has free will, G-d micromanages everything.  With predestination ... G-d knows the future, even if you don't, G-d gives you free choice, but knows in advance how you will choose.  Predestination hinges on the concept of eternity.  Predetermination hinges on the concept of providence.  Predetermination to me, is an obscenity.  Predestination is OK, but doesn't make any difference to me, since I don't know the future, and don't want to know.  Calvinism is predetermination.  Calvinism is an obscenity to me.  Predetermination is Catholic ... so I can criticize them on other things, but not that.

[Blackleaf]

Predetermination vs predestination.  With predetermination, nobody has free will, G-d micromanages everything.  With predestination ... G-d knows the future, even if you don't, G-d gives you free choice, but knows in advance how you will choose.  Predestination hinges on the concept of eternity.  Predetermination hinges on the concept of providence.  Predetermination to me, is an obscenity.  Predestination is OK, but doesn't make any difference to me, since I don't know the future, and don't want to know.

I don't agree with that definition of predestination. Pre = before. Destination = the end of the road. Predestination means that God chooses your ending--which eternal existence you will have--ahead of time. Some claim that God chooses the destination, but not the road. That makes God's plans sound like a Telltale game, where your choices don't matter.