Did Jesus ever exist?

[trdsf]

Nonsense; my proof is self evident and indisputable for me.

Well, yes, as I pointed out (and, not surprisingly, the point at which you ceased engaging with me), you had already essentially admitted both that you have no actual evidence outside of your own faith, and that you cherry-pick anyways.

What you still have not done, and which I suspect you cannot do, is explain your claimed proofs and their alleged self-evidence in a non-circular way.  If you want to believe that your bible is the inspired word of your god, that's fine, but you cannot expect us to take such a claim seriously without evidence outside of "because I believe it is".

Do I believe things on incomplete evidence?  Yes.  But I admit to the incomplete evidence, and I do not insist upon the absolute truth of those beliefs, and I am willing to admit that I could be wrong about them, with varying degrees of likelihood.

I believe there are other intelligent life forms in this galaxy.  That is consistent with everything we currently know about planetary formation and biological evolution.  It accepts the Principle of Mediocrity, which is to assume that when you have an exceptionally small data set, it is more likely that the datum is average than extreme for the projected rest of the population.  It does not require the violation of any known laws of science -- physics, chemistry or biology.  If you were to ask me of my certainty of the existence of other intelligent life forms in this galaxy, I would say it's 1-ε -- as close to a dead cert as you could ask for.

But.

I will freely and even cheerily admit that I have no hard evidence, that my statistics could be wrong (or simply interpreted differently), that there could be some impediment to the rise of complex life that we don't understand yet, that due to a fluke, we are not average for the assumed dataset but unusual.  I can point to observations that would make my belief much less tenable.

In short, I can say with equal confidence that yes, I could easily be wrong and maybe we are alone in the galaxy, possibly even the universe, but the statistics become so staggering on that last point, I would be strongly hesitant.

I do not think you can do the same.  I do not think you can provide objective evidence supporting your belief, and more importantly, I do not think you can provide potential observations that would cause you to say that your belief is much more unlikely because of them, that the available evidence has as many interpretations contrary to yours than concordant with.  Most of all, I do not think you can admit to the possibility that you might be just plain old wrong, that your bible is just a collection of the writings of men with no divine inspiration, that there's even that ε chance that there's no god for you to believe in.

But, I could be wrong.  Maybe you can.

But, like my extraterrestrials, that remains to be seen.

[doorknob]

Cut the crap! The freedom to choose is not synonymous with free will. Gods will is free will. The will of man is limited to the choices known to him. There maybe many more choices but if he doesn't know of them he can not choose it. Also I'd like to will myself to have riches but since I'm still poor guess my will isn't exactly free now is it? 

Yes choices are given to some unless you're heart is hardened like that of pharaohs. God selects who has choices and who does not. That is not free will. The Bible also speaks of divination. A little confusing isn't it.

Also on regards to faith. I never said it was necessary, your bible says that. I don't find faith to be a virtue, I find it to be asinine. Believing something without substance is delusional.


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[Unbeliever]

it says it is the will of GOD for all to come to belief and repentance.

Jesus told much his teaching in parables, but do you know why?

It says right here:



Mark 4:10-12

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

[Unbeliever]

and of course you tell the truth....yeah.....sure....because xians are "famous" for telling the truth.

Yeah, they don't lie, do they?

And yet Pious Lies are very common.

[Baruch]

If people had actual integrity, then things would go better.  But we don't, so it won't.

[Sorginak]

If people had actual integrity, then things would go better.  But we don't, so it won't.

With many theists, it is easy to hide behind their faith, expecting everyone to think they are of good moral character just because of that faith.

[popsthebuilder]

K, I'm gonna post a copy of my recounting of the experience of my being given faith or rather belief in GOD.

Maybe that will allow people to know my scenario a little better.



faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

This is a copy that I wrote to someone who had inquiries about a year ago I guess.

Please ask anything and give honest opinion.

Okay. A little back ground is in order I suppose.

From early childhood up until what happened I was an atheist or agnostic. I remember thinking at a young age that there couldn't be a God because pain and suffering seemed to be observable everywhere. At some point I did consider the Sun to be a higher power of sorts as no life that I knew of could live without it. I remember asking my father once if he thought there was a God. After careful consideration he replied that he did not know. I lived with my mom. We didn't go to church much; maybe a handful of times in early childhood. She wasn't really spiritual or religious that I could tell. I do recall my grandmother being a believer because at family gatherings she would insist that someone said grace or have thanks to God. Anyway, I went through life in relative solitude, always being somewhat odd or different I guess. At an early age I recognized pain as an electronic signal of sorts. In doing so I was able to train myself to endure quite a bit of it. I turned myself off emotionally somehow, letting little really affect me. I began to realize that anger and pain could be channeled and used as strength and motivation. Not being spiritual in any way, I guess I didn't realize the ramifications this could have later.

Fast forward to mid twenties. All lessons I learned the hard way, taking no advice from any, finding out for myself. Personal failure and disappointment on a constant level made me self loathing. Severe drug addiction made it worse. Though I had strength I couldn't stop by my own will seemingly. I hated pretty much everything, but most of all, myself. I awoke angry and fell asleep angry for years, even before serious drug addiction. I fought myself for a couple of years trying to change the direction I was witnessing myself going. I used to park at graveyards and contemplate death. I fervently wished I had the strength to kill myself, and hated myself that much more for being too cowardly to go through with it. Throughout my life, but mostly throughout my addiction, I had a lot of time to contemplate things, and view my own actions or the lack there of retrospectively. Somewhere in the midst of all this I recall sincerely swallowing my misplaced pride which was all but gone already, and asking for help. I pleaded to GOD, Christ, Jesus, whatever. I did this once. I realized that regardless of what I thought and how strong I thought I was, I couldn't seem to be able to make the change for better happen. Down, at my lowest point, I recall seeing what most likely would have been explained away by anyone(including myself) as a smudge on a window. There was light coming through. Regardless, the smudge had the vague form of an Angel. I don't know exactly why, but seeing that gave me an inkling of hope. I was still severely addicted though I had lost almost everything I had ever cared about. A woman I had a child with had taken me in at this point and the three of us were struggling pretty bad. She told me she was moving back home and said I could come. I did. I vaguely recall seeing something again when we moved. I don't even remember what it was, but I do remember that it reminded me of what I had seen on the window, and again that misplaced hope surfaced. Months went by. Her, my son, and myself moved in together in her home town. I had not used since we moved. I made a trip back home and used for one night. I returned and went back to not using. Throughout this time I still had all the same hate and anger that I had before. Though I was doing better as far as my drug addiction was concerned, she wasn't really trying to change. Our son was in the middle. This and other things brought great tention on our relationship. I went to jail for a somewhat unrelated reason. I got out about a month later I guess. When I returned home with her and my son I realized she had been doing some really messed up things while I was gone. I was so worried for the upbringing of my son that I justified killing her and going to prison, because I thought my son would be better off. I chased her for about a half an hour, methodically. She couldn't leave because I had her car keys. For those minutes I did intent to take her life with my hands. Thankfully, I eventually have her her keys and she left.

Okay, so that was a lot of back story. Sorry if it bored you. I've never went into that much detail about it but it seemed necessary to convey the state of mind I was in.

I'm not sure if it was the next day or a couple of days later.

I'm driving home from work on a usual road. Listening to the radio as I drive. The radio fades out to silence. This never happened before. I adjust the station and volume to no avail whatsoever...silence. Suddenly and inexplicably I feel this great weight, this huge burden lifted from me. My anger, pain, and hatred are removed all at once. I am overwhelmed with joy as tears flow freely from my eyes( something that previously just didn't really happen). I am utterly and wholly grateful and thank GOD. Many things begin to come into my mind. Things I never even fathomed. I am shown, in my mind, how GOD was with me through all things I had endured. I was shown how every step in my life had been for a reason and that GOD had been ever present through it all regardless of my obliviousness to it. I was shown how GOD was there before my conception and through my troubled birth. I was shown that I was here for a reason and that all I had been through was too, for a reason. Many understandings and revelations took place. Then things stopped coming into my mind. An utter peace never thought possible was with me. A joyous expectation of life filled me. The radio fades back in to the same station and volume it had been at. I felt the strong edge to write down what had taken place. When I got home, I found the nearest utensils at hand and began writing. I had intended to describe the happenings that had taken place. What I wrote is more of some sort of moral code. This all happened when I was thirty in 2011. I never really looked at those writings again for about four years. At which time I started reading the bible. For some reason I don't recall I found this invoice book that I had written in years before. When I read it it was as if it had been taken out of the bible or something because of the nature of the written material.

I had never read the bible or really even heard it prior to writing what I wrote.


In the past couple of years other things have happened and changes have taken place. But that is a different story I suppose. Regardless of what happens to me for whatever reasons, I will never forget the miraculous event that took place in my life by the grace and mercy of GOD.
All praise and thanks is to GOD.






faith in selfless unity for good

[Baruch]

Life is a drama.  You experienced catharsis.  See The Poetics by Aristotle.  I get little insights all the time, because my mind is open, not closed.  Some confirm what I already think, some cause me to have new thoughts.  Psychology.

[popsthebuilder]

Life is a drama.  You experienced catharsis.  See The Poetics by Aristotle.  I get little insights all the time, because my mind is open, not closed.  Some confirm what I already thing, some cause me to have new thoughts.  Psychology.

I agree. It was catharsis that was caused, along with other things.



faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

Do men imagine that We are far distant from the people of the world? Nay, the day We cause them to be assailed by the pangs of death they shall, upon the plain of Resurrection, behold how the Lord of Mercy and His Remembrance were near. Thereupon they shall exclaim: “Would that we had followed the path of the Báb! Would that we had sought refuge only with Him, and not with men of perversity and error! For verily the Remembrance of God appeared before us, behind us, and on all sides, yet we were, in very truth, shut out as by a veil from Him.”

Do not say, “How can He speak of God while in truth His age is no more than twenty-five?” Give ye ear unto Me. I swear by the Lord of the heavens and of the earth: I am verily a servant of God. I have been made the Bearer of irrefutable proofs from the presence of Him Who is the long-expected Remnant of God. Here is My Book before your eyes, as indeed inscribed in the presence of God in the Mother Book. God hath indeed made Me blessed, wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon Me to observe prayer and fortitude so long as I shall live on earth amongst you.

Glorified is He besides Whom there is none other God. In His grasp He holdeth the source of authority, and verily God is powerful over all things. We have decreed that every long life shall in truth suffer decline and that every hardship shall be followed by ease, that perchance men may recognize the Gate of God as He Who is the eternal Truth, and verily God shall stand as witness unto those that have believed.

The Daystar of Truth that shineth in its meridian splendor beareth Us witness! They who are the people of God have no ambition except to revive the world, to ennoble its life, and regenerate its peoples. Truthfulness and goodwill have, at all times, marked their relations with all men. Their outward conduct is but a reflection of their inward life, and their inward life a mirror of their outward conduct. No veil hideth or obscureth the verities on which their Faith is established. Before the eyes of all men these verities have been laid bare, and can be unmistakably recognized. Their very acts attest the truth of these words.

Every discerning eye can, in this Day, perceive the dawning light of God’s Revelation, and every attentive ear can recognize the Voice that was heard from the Burning Bush. Such is the rushing of the waters of Divine mercy, that He Who is the Dayspring of the signs of God and the Revealer of the evidences of His glory is without veil or concealment associating and conversing with the peoples of the earth and its kindreds. How numerous are those who, with hearts intent upon malice, have sought Our Presence, and departed from it loyal and loving friends! The portals of grace are wide open before the face of all men. In Our outward dealings with them We have treated alike the righteous and the sinner, that perchance the evildoer may attain the limitless ocean of Divine forgiveness. Our name “the Concealer” hath shed such a light upon men that the froward hath imagined himself to be numbered with the pious. No man that seeketh Us will We ever disappoint, neither shall he that hath set his face towards Us be denied access unto Our court.…

O friends! Help ye the one true God, exalted be His glory, by your goodly deeds, by such conduct and character as shall be acceptable in His sight. He that seeketh to be a helper of God in this Day, let him close his eyes to whatever he may possess, and open them to the things of God. Let him cease to occupy himself with that which profiteth him, and concern himself with that which shall exalt the all-compelling name of the Almighty. He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for the fear of God is the weapon that can render him victorious, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.

CXXVIIIf it be your wish, O people, to know God and to discover the greatness of His might, look, then, upon Me with Mine own eyes, and not with the eyes of anyone besides Me. Ye will, otherwise, be never capable of recognizing Me, though ye ponder My Cause as long as My Kingdom endureth, and meditate upon all created things throughout the eternity of God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Omnipotent, the Ever-Abiding, the All-Wise. Thus have We manifested the truth of Our Revelation, that haply the people may be roused from their heedlessness, and be of them that understand.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[Mike Cl]

Pops, this reminds me of people who are fond of saying:  There but for the grace of God, go I. 

They think or want people to think they are being humble and grateful--but what they are really saying is I have grace from God, you don't.  I'm glad God did not fuck me over like he fucked you over! 

Why does god visit pain and suffering never ending to some--and some who are newborns--and not on others???

[doorknob]

Sorry I didn't read your second wall of text. You should write a book someday.

I respect that you experienced something and no one here will deny you experienced something. But I'm not you and I wasn't there. So I don't know what you experienced.

Anecdotal stories are still not evidence however. Many people claim to have come in contact with aliens. I still don't believe in aliens at this time.

Don't take it personally.

I have a history of addiction too. I'm glad you found something that works for you. My story I went in the reverse direction. I started out as an honest believer. I really believed with all my heart. I even remember feeling what I thought was the Holy Spirit at the time.

But after my drug addiction I started analyzing things different and came to a different conclusion. I'd go into more of it but I'm afraid of boring people. And I'm not sure you really want to hear it. If you do I'll start a different thread about it.

Thank you for sharing your story. I didn't mind reading it at all.


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[trdsf]

And yet, none of this is evidence.  You had a profound psychological moment -- call it catharsis, satori, whatever -- that you chose to interpret as an encounter with something supernatural rather than something within.

You call it 'god'.  I call it becoming a responsible adult.

[popsthebuilder]

And yet, none of this is evidence.  You had a profound psychological moment -- call it catharsis, satori, whatever -- that you chose to interpret as an encounter with something supernatural rather than something within.

You call it 'god'.  I call it becoming a responsible adult.

I was already a responsible adult.

faith in selfless unity for good