Author Topic: Did Jesus ever exist?  (Read 5986 times)

Online Baruch

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2016, 07:28:54 PM »
Yeah, so was the idea that Chump would be our next POTUS.

I hear Caligula is ready for a comeback tour ;-(
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Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2016, 08:09:05 PM »
I looked into whether Jesus was a real man or not a few months ago.  You can wade through a mountain of historical documents you are not qualified to analyze or you can just ask what the majority of historians believe.  The majority of historians believe that Jesus was, in fact, a real person.
I do think that the majority of those historians who believe Jesus was real have a stake in promoting the Christian religion.  I see a mounting number of serious scholars who dispute that Jesus was a real person.  I tend to side with those.  One fact alone--that no person contemporary to Jesus (including himself) wrote about the man.  Nobody.  Strange at best.  The Jesus of the bible is a fiction.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline doorknob

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2016, 08:15:48 PM »
I do think that the majority of those historians who believe Jesus was real have a stake in promoting the Christian religion.  I see a mounting number of serious scholars who dispute that Jesus was a real person.  I tend to side with those.  One fact alone--that no person contemporary to Jesus (including himself) wrote about the man.  Nobody.  Strange at best.  The Jesus of the bible is a fiction.

I was gonna say it's news to me that historians believe jesus was a real person historically. I was informed that as mike says the serious historians do not believe he was based on a real man named jesus. Historically pretty much the whole bible is a fabrication.

Online Baruch

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2016, 05:09:34 AM »
I was gonna say it's news to me that historians believe jesus was a real person historically. I was informed that as mike says the serious historians do not believe he was based on a real man named jesus. Historically pretty much the whole bible is a fabrication.

The Bible is the greatest work of Jewish fiction ... not to detract from more recent Jewish authors.  If Gentiles and theists misunderstand that ... that isn't our problem.
שלום

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2016, 07:56:22 AM »
I got my degree from the University of Youtube. I'm currently at 45° C.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2016, 08:56:27 AM »
There's a big difference between a Jesus constrained by the laws of physics, and a Jesus who performed miracles.  Proving that there was a Jesus constrained by the laws of physics doesn't lend credibility to the Bible.  It actually demolishes it.  Now which Jesus are the historians talking about?  Just a guy named Jesus?  Or a miracle Jesus?  If it's the first, well, OK, maybe, why not?  If it's the miracle Jesus, then that sounds like bullshit.  If all you can do is prove there was a guy named Jesus, well whoop-de-doo.  You haven't got Jack.  And no one has been able to prove that, anyway.  I've never understood the point of arguing about the existence of just a regular guy named Jesus.  It's a waste of theological discussion and hurts Christianity more than it supports it.
So what if a man named Jesus did all miracles listed but that literal interpretation is a misunderstanding? Walked on water could be seen a metaphor for GOD and hovering over the void in Genesis. Healing the lame and blind can all be taken spiritually. Even reviving the dead can and does seem to refer to spiritual death or utter misdirection in ones own life coupled with the inability to change ones path though one may know of its erroneous direction. Jesus was a man. So historians generally thinking that Jesus the man existed is indeed relevant in my opinion.

Peace


Offline SGOS

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 09:04:39 AM »
Most experts in Norse history agree that there probably was an actual man named Thor, who was a local leader and could lift a lot of heavy weight.  Some experts refute this, of course, but they aren't very good experts.

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 09:31:19 AM »
So what if a man named Jesus did all miracles listed but that literal interpretation is a misunderstanding? Walked on water could be seen a metaphor for GOD and hovering over the void in Genesis. Healing the lame and blind can all be taken spiritually. Even reviving the dead can and does seem to refer to spiritual death or utter misdirection in ones own life coupled with the inability to change ones path though one may know of its erroneous direction. Jesus was a man. So historians generally thinking that Jesus the man existed is indeed relevant in my opinion.

Peace
I think I finally figured out where you are coming from, Pops.  You like to think of life and religion and the bible and Jesus as metaphor's for how to live one's life.  Am I correct?

There was a gentleman named Charles Fillmore who founded the Unity Church.  He authored a book that I think you would simply love!  It is called The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary.  In it he tells you how to take any story in the bible and turn it into a metaphor for your current situation in life.  At the time I was a member of that church, I found I used that book quite a bit; I still own a copy.  As a very brief example, I rendered the David vs Goliath story this way.  David went from the mountain to the valley to meet Goliath.  The mountains are when we are connecting with our inner self, assessing what it is we need.  The valley is where the rubber meets the road.  Saul offer David help of armor and weapons.  David refused the help and used his own weapons; when tackling a huge undertaking search within and determine what works for you and the use those tools to the best of your ability.  In the valley use those tools and have trust in your abilities when tackling your own goliath.  My full rendition was over a page long, so this is simply a taste.  I really do hope you look this book up--it is right down your alley!   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 09:34:24 AM »
So historians generally thinking that Jesus the man existed is indeed relevant in my opinion.

Peace
I'm sure you do, Pops.  Your opinion holds that Jesus was a man, therefore you will say that the historians that agree with you are correct.  That is simply wishful thinking, along the lines of believing the Tooth Fairy exists because you want her to.  Same, same.  There is no proof that the bibical jesus existed.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline SGOS

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 11:04:09 AM »
I think I finally figured out where you are coming from, Pops.  You like to think of life and religion and the bible and Jesus as metaphor's for how to live one's life.  Am I correct?

There was a gentleman named Charles Fillmore who founded the Unity Church.  He authored a book that I think you would simply love!  It is called The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary.  In it he tells you how to take any story in the bible and turn it into a metaphor for your current situation in life.  At the time I was a member of that church, I found I used that book quite a bit; I still own a copy.  As a very brief example, I rendered the David vs Goliath story this way.  David went from the mountain to the valley to meet Goliath.  The mountains are when we are connecting with our inner self, assessing what it is we need.  The valley is where the rubber meets the road.  Saul offer David help of armor and weapons.  David refused the help and used his own weapons; when tackling a huge undertaking search within and determine what works for you and the use those tools to the best of your ability.  In the valley use those tools and have trust in your abilities when tackling your own goliath.  My full rendition was over a page long, so this is simply a taste.  I really do hope you look this book up--it is right down your alley!   

As a religion, I'm not going to complain about that.  Metaphors are OK.  It's not a claim of literal reality.  As long as your interpretation isn't that it's also everybody else's interpretation, and that you realize that you're making a temporary interpretation based on an immediate need, that's cool.  I start getting skeptical when theists wander beyond the bounds of what they know, conflating what they know, with what they want.

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 11:30:53 AM »
Most experts in Norse history agree that there probably was an actual man named Thor, who was a local leader and could lift a lot of heavy weight.  Some experts refute this, of course, but they aren't very good experts.

I heard he did God's work, killing Ice Giants.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 11:43:45 AM »
I'm sure you do, Pops.  Your opinion holds that Jesus was a man, therefore you will say that the historians that agree with you are correct.  That is simply wishful thinking, along the lines of believing the Tooth Fairy exists because you want her to.  Same, same.  There is no proof that the bibical jesus existed.
I said relevant.
And we are talking about a person not a tooth fairy.

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2016, 11:51:42 AM »
As a religion, I'm not going to complain about that.  Metaphors are OK.  It's not a claim of literal reality.  As long as your interpretation isn't that it's also everybody else's interpretation, and that you realize that you're making a temporary interpretation based on an immediate need, that's cool.  I start getting skeptical when theists wander beyond the bounds of what they know, conflating what they know, with what they want.
You will find that those who strive to be pleasing to GOD or on the right path will have, as a necessity, removed want from self. The conflation is in saying that the Will of the Creator and the will of man are the same. One must negate want for self that is contrary to what is good for the whole. I'd they deny this simple truth totally then they are aiming for their own wants. As with anything; when the results equal negativity then the source is negative. Morality is intrinsic to human life but greed negates it.

Peace

Online Baruch

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2016, 01:18:48 PM »
So what if a man named Jesus did all miracles listed but that literal interpretation is a misunderstanding? Walked on water could be seen a metaphor for GOD and hovering over the void in Genesis. Healing the lame and blind can all be taken spiritually. Even reviving the dead can and does seem to refer to spiritual death or utter misdirection in ones own life coupled with the inability to change ones path though one may know of its erroneous direction. Jesus was a man. So historians generally thinking that Jesus the man existed is indeed relevant in my opinion.

Peace

It is what a good metaphor can teach you ... that is relevant ... not any man, historical or otherwise.
שלום

Online Baruch

Re: Did Jesus ever exist?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2016, 01:20:47 PM »
I said relevant.
And we are talking about a person not a tooth fairy.

No quarters under your pillow for you! ;-)
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