News:

Welcome to our site!

Main Menu

The End of America's Racial Détente

Started by GSOgymrat, November 15, 2016, 10:16:21 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mike Cl

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 03:36:33 PM


This is strawman and it doesn't mean anything.


I don't see it that way.  Whites don't have a monopoly on racism.  Racism is only a specialized version of 'us vs them'.  It is a way to pit one group against another.  It should be even more obvious since there is only one race of human.  Human.  The rest is mainly window dressing.  It seems to me racism is a left over vestige of a survival trait that makes one's first duty to defend the 'group' vs all others so that your group could survive.  Now that is not a very good survival trait; it is more like an anti-survival trait. 

My country has always used racism in it's institutions; it's in the constitution for crying out loud!  It will be there for quite some time, I'm afraid. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 02, 2016, 01:01:31 PM
No. It's plainly just that. You have a problem with understanding what you read.

I am saying that except a very little minority, white people do not care about racism as an issue at all. They have never cared about it before, they do not care about it now. They just don't give a fuck. Because it is not about them. It doesn't touch them. It's all the same for them if racism is an issue or not.

They just talk about it in forums and boards because it is anonymous, when there is something negative they can relate to themselves, it gets delicious and they start to create 'reasonings' on blaming the other side. Usually goes aruond teh word racist. 'They are calling us all racist'.

There is a big issue about the word itself. Racist. It's a learned behaviour that 'racist' is something you shouldn't be called, because it is an insult. Doesn't matter if you are or not. But that is just it.

You can actually be a racist, or only apathetic to the issue, it doesn't matter. The political correctness is so deep and thick it is about being called a racist, not even being one.

It's about insulting the white identity; culture which is by the way inherently the most racist, fascist ethnic group one earth. They do not give a fuck about racism at all, they are just jacked about being called racists and that's where it get delicious beause it is another self righteous bullshit to blame any other none white ethnic group. Masturbation.

The opposite of love, isn't hate, it is indifference.  When Americans are indifferent about race (not just racism) ... we aren't playing nice.  It isn't Détente.  I thought we had Détente ... but I was wrong, as was shown by events over the last 8 years.  Actual hatred would be honest ... and PC is anything but.  We can't resolve anything thru dishonesty.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Aletheia

Quote from: Absurd Atheist on November 16, 2016, 07:08:21 PM
How do you suppose we address racism besides simply ignoring it for a few generations?

Create an environment or a set of circumstances that renders the concept of race moot. The military is an interesting, albeit harsh, example of this. A person's whiteness, blackness, brownness, etc does not change the fact that everyone needs to work together as a team or that everyone in the group will be punished for the fuck-ups of one person (no matter their race). It creates cohesion within the group by rewarding cooperative behavior and punishing disruptive behavior (such as racism).

For a country, catastrophe provides a very selective environment for group cohesion. Tragedies that affect everyone in nearly the same way, offer a reminder that we are all the same and are part of a greater whole.

Implementing a system based on merits with no regard to race (therefore can become racially random), may provide the incentive to focus more on what sort of person you want or need to be and less on which racial group you belong to or tallying how many members of a race are present at a given time in a given place. This method would focus more on removing the concept of distinctive classes (or other groups) and those restrictions, and give little, if any thought, to the race(s) of the people who happen to be in those classes. For instance, if person A, B, and C are from three different races, then you would select A because they are the best fit for the job. Same is true if person A, B, and C were from different classes within a given society. Then race or class would no longer be the selective force - merit would be.

The key being - don't select for race. Select for something else.
Quote from: Jakenessif you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 07:32:39 PM
I don't see it that way.  Whites don't have a monopoly on racism.  Racism is only a specialized version of 'us vs them'.  It is a way to pit one group against another.  It should be even more obvious since there is only one race of human.  Human.  The rest is mainly window dressing.  It seems to me racism is a left over vestige of a survival trait that makes one's first duty to defend the 'group' vs all others so that your group could survive.  Now that is not a very good survival trait; it is more like an anti-survival trait. 

My country has always used racism in it's institutions; it's in the constitution for crying out loud!  It will be there for quite some time, I'm afraid.

Mike, no ethnic group has monopoly on anything. This is needless to discuss. I am saying the statement of 'Not all whites are racist' is not an argument for the issue of racism. It doesn't mean anything, because as you put it is something institutional, something inherent.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

drunkenshoe

#35
Quote from: Nonsensei on December 02, 2016, 07:23:43 PM
You're right. Many white people don't really care about racism and rarely try to actually do anything about it. This doesn't make them racists themselves, but it does make them pathologically indifferent.

What the article describes is a scenario that was really the best we could hope for given the general indifference of the American people towards each other. It was a situation in which overt racism was severely punished. For example, if Donald Trump has run for president in 2000 instead of 2016 he wouldn't have even made it out of the primaries. The things he said about women and minorities would have sunk him before he even left port, if you will forgive a nautical analogy. Actually don't forgive it that was awful.

The article is trying to figure out what has changed. Why is it that starting this election year, an open bigot like Donald Trump can win an election when, 20 years ago he would have become a social pariah? Something has shifted among voters.  The article is suggesting that Americans stopped caring about bigotry because the rules that have regulated what is and is not considered bigotry have changed. Specifically, bigotry used to be something you did. Today it is something you are. Further it is something you are by virtue of being what you are.

So white people see the shift in political correctness that starts to define them as racists for being white. To be clear, it doesn't matter if this is true and it doesn't matter if the people effecting this change really mean that ALLLL white people are racist. All that matters for the purpose of this discussion is what the perception of the white American voter is.

What I am describing here is white victimhood, where a large portion of white people feel like they are under ideological assault. Essentially this is what I feel was one of the major contributors to a Trump victory. Instead of seeing racism as something external and reprehensible, they started seeing it as a bludgeon used to silence them. It became a label they couldn't avoid or remove. Their natural response was to reject the entire concept and retaliate at the polls.

And they did, putting Donald Trump in the white house and handing congress to the republican party.

And it could never have happened without social justice warriors. That is the overarching point. Social justice warriors made it impossible to be white and not a bigot in their minds. But rather than be chastised by the reality of their innate evilness, they rejected the entire concept in the most virulent way they could - they voted for the most openly bigoted candidate in recent history and the socially regressive party he represented. This is how SJW's contributed to social regression in a way only they could have accomplished. If not for SJW's Donald Trump would almost certainly not be president.

Again, I can't stress this enough: The reality doesn't matter. Whats actually going on is irrelevant. All that matters is the perception of these white american voters, and they felt victimized, as laughable as that seems. They responded the way any group of humans would - by striking out in retaliation. Unfortunately for everyone on the planet, that retaliation took the form of President Trump.

Believe it or not, as with many issues, the two of us are really on the same side. The old social order regarding racism had huge flaws. It left the field very wide open for racism to go undetected and unpunished. But the white American majority felt safe in it. They felt safe enough not to band together and make horrible voting decisions just for the sake of telling progressive groups to go fuck themselves. They felt safe enough to vote democrat and put socially progressive politicians in office, like Obama. By removing the illusion that racism was a specific problem rather than an institutional one, and by telling white people they were all the root of that institutional racism those white americans stopped feeling safe and started to feel angry.

I do think that racism is a huge problem in America, but I also recognize that white america in general is not ready to accept responsibility for institutional discrimination. Your gut reaction to that might be that they need to grow the fuck up, but that won't happen. And unfortunately, as we witnessed last month, white america is not above angrily voting a semi-sentient orangutan into office as a form of retaliation against having the truth smeared in their faces.


You say White Americans started not to feel safe and became angry which is as you put certainly laughable, and this as we all know has nothing to do with anything in real life. 

Think about how American people-culture work with fear and paranoia about any kind of safety, from the simplest personal thing be it online or something daily; how they conduct themselves, how politically correct and sterilised most of their lives are. This people supposedly felt unsafe and become angry about groups who have been angry and unsafe all their existence in this country which was basically founded on that relationship. Now think about Black people or other minorities -be it Middle Easterners and various different Asian groups...etc. Getting attacked and killed for the simplest thing like their outfits -how many Sikhs have been assualted and killed in the last year?- for blacks constantly reading and watching their fellow people being shot for their skin colour at sight, because they are the 'criminal' race AND how everyone is acting politically correct about it with 'myeh, media is fueling, besides you know their crime rate' AND in the end when that anger and unsafety; all this bullshit and hypocrisy results in some protest and reaction they get is 'How do you dare to make me feel like you feel in your existence and call me a racist!'

If we put this on historical perspective, the white master punished the nonwhite for daring to react and make himself virtually, remotely feel what has been his existence all along.

I don't know if you are aware, but what you are saying is what BLM puts forward with a different expression; yours is different because you are not in it; you are not experiencing, thinking, feeling, breathing, living it. You are saying to me, "Shoe, white people are racist in this country, so let it go." Because as the nonracist white minority doesn't make a difference, while the majority actively changed the course in the opposite. Because it seems that a very large group of White dems who voted for Obama have voted for Trump.

They made a personal decision between a person who would make a typical standard president for USA and another one -every bullshit he spewed aside- with no experience who promised to make America white again. It's not an Republican win in pre 9/11 era. Doesn't matter what is generally this forum's perception, the Great America is the white America runs on war industry, atrocity and genocide, the traditional racist hierarchy. The fact that some people see that past from a different point of view NOW, unfortunately doesn't change the reality that it is actually just an inidivudal awakening they developed during the same course while now it dropped miles down the scales.

If it's about SJW being loud and agressive; not being politically correct to the vanillas' delicate feelings, doesn't matter who hates SJW how much, they are an organic, natural result of social change in America. It doesn't matter how stupid it looks to the white heterosexual man, everything happening now proves in first hand that they were actually in the right course. To blame them for Trump or the downfall is like blaming the victim for rape.

But if you are going to blame them, please do not forget to include the strong disgusting white backlash to every SJW group, any protest and activism porduced by the heterosexual white men with vlogs and blogs with millions and millions of followers. People who made tons of money by spreading urgent fear, hatred, sense and blame of anti-racism and sexism groups for the downfall of western civilsation. They created the white victimhood, speifically the white heterosexual victimisation which was owned up to it by the white with glee. FFS, this forum is full of those vlogs and blogs to the brim, half of it is posted shut up shiranu some for me. There is nothing else in it about any of the issues. It is the fucking safe space for it, because people actually believe here that it is all made up.

You are blaming the wrong side with wrong reasons.



[I do know we agree on most things and that we are on the same side that just makes me more angry with you when you post something apologetic and with other people I actually give a damn about their opinions and it gives me a migraine. Otherwise, I don't give a fuck what a republican member posts here, could care less, I don't have a speck of respect for them, nothing except despise. Save the lecture on hatred please. I have spent my life with exploding my head trying to be 'objective'. Not anymore, I am taking sides and it is not the white one. Over here or there. Be it a white turk or a white american. Fuck all of them. (When it comes to personal feelings about this election, I shouldn't have doubted myself and talked about it with you and, my friends, sis, write it here, get it out instead of deluding myself with anti-trump democrats who are clueless what is going in their own country. This is what fucked up my psychology. Not to say I told you so, but because I really do care about it, because as you know my life very well the only place I have to go is United States if the worst should happen here. But I couldn't because the delusion is warm and comfortable but I feel so fucking bad about it BECAUSE I am living in the same nightmare ALL OVER AGAIN. This time the scale is not limited to some little Middle Eastern country. It is a global catastrophie.)]

I want to tell you something and I know you'll find it absurdly dark. Do you remember that a few days after the election morning we were talking about initial protests and you explained to me that American people would never go out for a big national protest, something like we had in 2013 and that they will continue their lives without caring what is going on. And that they would see protests as just crude violence and riots.

I tried to describe you some phases a society goes through when something like this happens. That there is the initial 'shock', and then a dormant period which people get used to things, but that nothing big happens neither from the other side...just bit by bit under the surface until a certain point of power and confidence he reaches. BUT then at some point when things start to surface and get to a tipping point -because he will win the second round- people will start to react in groups. I know you don't believe in that right now. But that slowly brewing long coming psychology that point in individual and mass scale is something really unexpected and unbelievable.

And when that starts to happen he will; they will declare everyone who criticises him, his government or anything done a terrorist. People will die right and left. The arm forces will open fire to their own citizens. They will start to shoot nonwhites, lgbtq people first and anyone, any group that will go out and protest something, speak against him. He will threaten everyone from organisations, groups, journalists to writers, comedy shows hosts..etc. He will sue everyone. Adjust laws to do it. He will create blasphemy laws of any kind.

And it will be the new norm. It will be 'they are violent rioters, a threat to society, threat to America'. Half the America is 'anti-American' now. Nobody will do anything, they won't be able to. It will just go on winding and winding AND when the winder is broken -you know that when you wind old clocks if you do it over the lever breaks inside and doesn't wind anymore?- nobody will be able to do anything other than go out to protest because they are scared. One fear will overwhelm the other.

I know how it sounds and I sincerely hope that I am very wrong about this. But this is easy to happen and it will happen invisibly and slowly and one day when you wake up this will be the normal. If somebody told me 15 years ago that hundreds of thousands of people would go out to protest the government, that one day protests even would protect certain laws and rights in my country I would fall down my chair laughing and probably make fun of it obnoxiously. But it happened and it was horrifying and the most humbling thing on earth if you ask me. They kept abortion right several years ago and just 10 days ago they forced the government change a legislation about sexual assault.

-----------------------

I think you'll be up in an hour. I'd be glad if we could game or watch a movie or something. If I go on gaming alone just to shut up myself, I'll start bleeding from my ears.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Gawdzilla Sama

Put down the internet, everybody, and go for a walk.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Baruch

Shoe ... the people are simply responding in a fugue state, to the disaster of the police state.  Same as most people drown when a ship sinks, because they don't do the few necessary things immediately after the ship hits the ice berg.  The majority can't be saved ... save yourself and your family, leave the rest to their watery fate.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 03, 2016, 03:43:40 AM
Mike, no ethnic group has monopoly on anything. This is needless to discuss. I am saying the statement of 'Not all whites are racist' is not an argument for the issue of racism. It doesn't mean anything, because as you put it is something institutional, something inherent.

It is inherent because history can't be changed, humans are predators, and people prefer to deny what monsters we really are (not that there is anything wrong with kaiju).  The idea that some technological or social process will change this, is insane.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Shiranu

QuoteCreate an environment or a set of circumstances that renders the concept of race moot. The military is an interesting, albeit harsh, example of this. A person's whiteness, blackness, brownness, etc does not change the fact that everyone needs to work together as a team or that everyone in the group will be punished for the fuck-ups of one person (no matter their race). It creates cohesion within the group by rewarding cooperative behavior and punishing disruptive behavior (such as racism).

Alot of the most disgustingly racist people I know are from the Marines, Navy & Army (don't know too many racist Airforce, but that is probably just coincidence). I think, if anything, the culture in the military (from my experience living on base about half my life and being surrounded by military families all my life ) is more racist than average.

They may not be racist at work, but they sure as hell don't mind bitching about that "African" Muslim Obama or how immigrants are the death of America in person and on facebook, and while not racial don't dare get them started on liberals. And good god, once they leave... they crank the bigotry up to 10.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

_Xenu_

#40
Quote from: Nonsensei on December 02, 2016, 07:23:43 PM
And unfortunately, as we witnessed last month, white america is not above angrily voting a semi-sentient orangutan into office as a form of retaliation against having the truth smeared in their faces.

Bwahahahahaha.

I shouldn't laugh, but that the orangutan bit was just too funny.
Click this link once a day to feed shelter animals. Its free.

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/ars/home

Baruch

Quote from: Shiranu on December 03, 2016, 10:41:59 AM
Alot of the most disgustingly racist people I know are from the Marines, Navy & Army (don't know too many racist Airforce, but that is probably just coincidence). I think, if anything, the culture in the military (from my experience living on base about half my life and being surrounded by military families all my life ) is more racist than average.

They may not be racist at work, but they sure as hell don't mind bitching about that "African" Muslim Obama or how immigrants are the death of America in person and on facebook, and while not racial don't dare get them started on liberals. And good god, once they leave... they crank the bigotry up to 10.

Military people (I know USAF) are very conservative (because they are volunteer professionals ... this wasn't true during the Draft).  Generally speaking though, only a few of them are gun nuts, or are war mongers.  Since they get to fight, they are usually against war.  The military, contrary to their own wants, was forced to integrate several times since the American Revolution.  Things seem pretty stable, race-wise, today.  The ennui is mostly directed at civilians.  If more liberals would volunteer for military duty ... they would become less conservative.  All SJW stuff they do in the military today, is superficial PC ... they don't really believe any of it, they just have to salute it.  The biggest internal problem is sexual assault by male military against female military.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Jack89

Quote from: Shiranu on December 03, 2016, 10:41:59 AM
Alot of the most disgustingly racist people I know are from the Marines, Navy & Army (don't know too many racist Airforce, but that is probably just coincidence). I think, if anything, the culture in the military (from my experience living on base about half my life and being surrounded by military families all my life ) is more racist than average.

They may not be racist at work, but they sure as hell don't mind bitching about that "African" Muslim Obama or how immigrants are the death of America in person and on facebook, and while not racial don't dare get them started on liberals. And good god, once they leave... they crank the bigotry up to 10.
I have to disagree.  I served with people from just about every ethnic background you can think of and think the camaraderie built from serving together overcame a lot of superficial biases.  Going through rigorous training together and experiencing hardships overseas together, while striving for the same cause, brings people closer to one another.   Why don't you join up and serve a tour so you can get an inside view?  Expand your horizons.