Who Really Won Last Night?

[Baruch]

The voters have made a choice.  Mostly, they do a pretty good job.  We will have to see about this one.

The voters didn't do well in the Primaries.  As an independent I can't participate in the un-Constitutional two-party system ... and if I did I would burn down both the DNC and RNC.

[SGOS]

that is indeed the real purpose of the government. Hence the new outright indignation, and where we are today.

Politicians would prefer to keep as much power out of the hands of voters as possible.  It's how the infrastructure of the system has been tilted over the years.  I think it irritated Republican voters more and it's why Republican voters rejected the leadership in favor of Trump.  Democrats decided on the "more of the same" option, which tends to take the enthusiasm and fire of participation out of the constituency.

It seems odd to me that the conservatives were the ones to revolt against the system, rather than the liberals, because it has always seemed to me that the GOP is better at delivering the goods to their side.  I'm not saying they do it to a great extent or all the time.  No, they still have a greater agenda that comes first, the same as the Democrats, but they do seem to do a better job of delivering to their rank and file.  Democrats tend to talk about and endorse more real and important issues.  Their rhetoric is most certainly softer and kinder, but they don't seem to have the fire it takes to effect actual change in the system, and the constituency seems less bothered by that.  I don't see any serious populist rebellion down the road for them.

[Cavebear]

Politicians would prefer to keep as much power out of the hands of voters as possible.  It's how the infrastructure of the system has been tilted over the years.  I think it irritated Republican voters more and it's why Republican voters rejected the leadership in favor of Trump.  Democrats decided on the "more of the same" option, which tends to take the enthusiasm and fire of participation out of the constituency.

It seems odd to me that the conservatives were the ones to revolt against the system, rather than the liberals, because it has always seemed to me that the GOP is better at delivering the goods to their side.  I'm not saying they do it to a great extent or all the time.  No, they still have a greater agenda that comes first, the same as the Democrats, but they do seem to do a better job of delivering to their rank and file.  Democrats tend to talk about and endorse more real and important issues.  Their rhetoric is most certainly softer and kinder, but they don't seem to have the fire it takes to effect actual change in the system, and the constituency seems less bothered by that.  I don't see any serious populist rebellion down the road for them.

Sometimes people want to burn down the house to rebuild it.  I prefer gradual renovations.  Most of the house is worth keeping.

[SGOS]

Sometimes people want to burn down the house to rebuild it.  I prefer gradual renovations.  Most of the house is worth keeping.

This appears to be a gradual renovation.  The Republicans didn't burn down any structures.  There was a peaceful transfer of power from the professional power brokers to an outsider.  The transfer was done willingly under established rules, although with some hand wringing, oppositional rhetoric, and talk of changing the normal procedures midstream.  Talk of assassinations seem to come mostly from the left.  Gradual renovations, like any change can include an amount of anxiety, and is to be expected.  The house is still there, with the furniture rearranged slightly.  Whether it's permanent is not known yet.

[Cavebear]

This appears to be a gradual renovation.  The Republicans didn't burn down any structures.  There was a peaceful transfer of power from the professional power brokers to an outsider.  The transfer was done willingly under established rules, although with some hand wringing, oppositional rhetoric, and talk of changing the normal procedures midstream.  Talk of assassinations seem to come mostly from the left.  Gradual renovations, like any change can include an amount of anxiety, and is to be expected.  The house is still there, with the furniture rearranged slightly.  Whether it's permanent is not known yet.

You might want to try that again. The only assassination threats were from Trump gun fanatics if Clinton won loud vocal "2nd amendment" solutions...  The most a Democrat could do is throw a golf ball or lawn dart.  Are you regularly so disinformational?

[drunkenshoe]

Frankly i think this is a lot more about window dressing. Everyone that I have talked to over the last months have nothing against people of color or sexual identity…they hate the established core and want to go outside of it and view Trump as a valid outsider. This is far more about hating a government that has ignored you than hating other people.

The exact same arguments were made about Erdogan when he first came to power. Democrats here have voted for him with exact same reasons yours have . They hated all the other parties and the governments.

Erdogan is not a religious leader, his 'muslimship' is exactly like the window dressing of Trump's racist-sexist identity politics. What's more Erdogan actually corrected the economy in the first period and won more votes. Rest is down the hill, BECAUSE THAT GAVE HIM THE POWER TO FUCK EVERYTHING UP.

This is not a sudden process, it is gradual and that is how people get used to it. How it becomes the normal. Then comes down the crashing realisation.

Do NOT make the mistake of thinking you are different than Turkey now. You are just at the beginning of the story.

So those people you talk about, like the ones over here are stupid and ignorant and it will be too late when they realised what they have served for. If they ever realise that is...

[Cavebear]

The exact same arguments were made about Erdogan when he first came to power. Democrats here have voted for him with exact same reasons yours have . They hated all the other parties and the governments.

Erdogan is not a religious leader, his 'muslimship' is exactly like the window dressing of Trump's racist-sexist identity politics. What's more Erdogan actually corrected the economy in the first period and won more votes. Rest is down the hill, BECAUSE THAT GAVE HIM THE POWER TO FUCK EVERYTHING UP.

This is not a sudden process, it is gradual and that is how people get used to it. How it becomes the nomal. Then comes down the crashing realisation.

Do NOT make the mistake of thinking you are different than Turkey now. You are just at the beginning of the story.

So those people you talk about, like the ones over here are stupid and ignorant and it will be too late when they realised what they have served for. If they ever realise that is...

I gather you have some personal concerns with Turkish politics?

[drunkenshoe]

I gather you have some personal concerns with Turkish politics?

No shit.

[Cavebear]

No shit.

You are in the wrong place, dude...  Turkey is just a governmentally secular place full of crazy theists trying to make it a sectarian one.

[drunkenshoe]

You are in the wrong place, dude...  Turkey is just a governmentally secular place full of crazy theists trying to make it a sectarian one.

I am a woman and I don't like to be called 'dude'. For some reason, I always hated that word. Call me 'Shoe'.

And please, if you are going to tell me about my own country, try to make more sense? Turkey is a governmentally religious country full of with secular people who dropped class to the religious half a decade after the local Trump -aka Erdogan- came to power. 13 years ago.

Present day Turkey is a muslim version of America's future after Trump.

[Cavebear]

I am a woman and I don't like to be called 'dude'. For some reason, I always hated that word. Call me 'Shoe'.

And please, if you are going to tell me about my own country, try to make more sense? Turkey is a governmentally religious country full of with secular people who dropped class to the religious half a decade after the local Trump -aka Erdogan- came to power. 13 years ago.

Present day Turkey is a muslim version of America's future after Trump.

My sincerest apologies for "dude".  I thought I saw a reference to "he" once.  My complete error.

I did think that Turkey was officially secular but culturally religious though.  Did it change while I wasn't looking?  Not that I focus on Turkey much (much to your annoyance).

But, you think Trump is a theist? 

[Hydra009]

The voters have made a choice.  Mostly, they do a pretty good job.  We will have to see about this one.

Is that a joke?  I come from a state that elected Jesse Helms to US Senate five times.  Five times.

If you don't know who that is, let me give you a quick brief about him.

From the beginning, Helms was schooled in the political device of using race to propel white conservatives to the polls. As news director for WRAL radio, Helms supported Willis Smith in his 1950 Senate campaign against Frank Porter Graham, the former president of the University of North Carolina. The campaign theme was that Graham favored interracial marriages. "White people, wake up before it is too late," said one ad. "Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races."

The campaign's further contribution to political notoriety was a handbill that showed Graham's wife dancing with a black man.

Because of Helms, several major treaties never became law: The Kyoto Protocol against global warming, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the proposed land mine treaty -- all were stopped at his insistence.

Helms' demagoguery was a lightning rod for liberals. He called homosexuals "weak, morally sick wretches." During debate on a 1988 AIDS bill sponsored by Sens. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), Helms said, "There is not one single case of AIDS in this country that cannot be traced in origin to sodomy."

[Cavebear]

Is that a joke?  I come from a state that elected Jesse Helms to US Senate five times.  Five times.

If you don't know who that is, let me give you a quick brief about him.

I was referring the the whole US.  Your State is entirely YOUR embarrassment.

[drunkenshoe]

My sincerest apologies for "dude".  I thought I saw a reference to "he" once.  My complete error.

I did think that Turkey was officially secular but culturally religious though.  Did it change while I wasn't looking?  Not that I focus on Turkey much (much to your annoyance).

But, you think Trump is a theist?

I am not annoyed at all, my feelings are the same.

Yes it has changed.

I think Trump is an Erdogan is a Putin...etc.

[Cavebear]

I am not annoyed at all, my feelings are the same.

Yes it has changed.

I think Trump is an Erdogan is a Putin...etc.

Then I am sorry for the change.  I can't keep up with every change everywhere.  There are just too many nations.

I might well agree with you about Trump.  But we have power balances hard to overcome.