How Do You Rate The 2nd Debate?

Started by Hydra009, October 10, 2016, 06:55:33 PM

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Hydra009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooShpws3Dik

I'll admit, I think Trump did better this time around.  But it's still the same ol' song and dance with neither candidate making much headway.  Meh, I call it a wash.

But even so, Clinton answered the questions like a knowledgeable politician and Trump answered them like he's trying to give a book report on book he has never read.  There's no question in my mind who appears more presidential.

I swear to Dawkins, whenever Trump uses his "I'm the most _____" line, it's a surefire tell that he's lying.  Whenever he says that he's the most knowledgeable, has the best tempertment, respects women the most, etc - his statement can be safely assumed to be a lie.

Also, there were a few moments I'd like to draw attention to.

The pussygate apology

Trump had all weekend to prepare for this one and he did okay at first, acknowledging his mistake and apologizing to the American people.  And then he jumps into some bizzare diatribe about ISIS.  I think that he was trying to say that there are way bigger issues to worry about, but jeez, it's hard to parse his message out of that verbal fog.  I get the impression that he's never had to apologize for anything before and can't stay on message if his life depended on it.  Not a great showing, imo.

Of course I avoided paying taxes

One hell of an an admission here.

I'd jail Clinton

Stupid inflammatory rhetoric designed to appeal to the "jail Hillary" conservative base.  The downside is that it alienates everyone else.  If any Dem-leaning voters weren't already planning on voting for Clinton, they are now.

Clean coal

Clinton's trying to put the coal industry out of business?  Good!  They should go out of business.  It's an obsolete industry that's killing the planet and the sooner we ditch it, the better.  It's one hell of a dangerous job, too.

Name something good about your opponent.
*both candidates get a deer-in-headlights look*


Clinton did a stealth insult by praising his children (implying that there's nothing good that can be said about Trump)
Trump praised Clinton's determination, which is good on him.

Oddly enough, I think Trump took the higher road there.

What's my plan again?

Hillary's plan is the worst.  She's been trying her plan for 500 years.  Disaster.  Big disaster.  Horrible, horrible disaster.  Like Hindenberg.  Probably caused WWI.  My plan is the best plan.  I understand plans more than anyone else in the world.  Cause *sniffs*  I'm the best planner everywhere *sniffs* in the world.  ISIS is horrible.  It's like medieval times out there.  *moderator interrupts* Can I finish?  Can I finish???  *5 min rant about unfair mic privileges before the mic is finally cut*

chill98

I was able to stay tuned in better this time. Trump did better, a whole 25 minutes before he began interrupting.  I focused intently on the ACA (obamacare) portion.  It became apparent Clinton has no real comprehension of the disaster it is OR she refuses to acknowledge the failings which are immense.   Obamacare has had a very negative effect on many people I know.

I don't know that she was involved in the manufacturing of this burden but it was supposed to be a favorite issue of hers and her response was pure deflection.  So what if an Insurance company can't refuse you for a pre-existing condition if you can't afford to use it (or pay the premiums)? 

I absolutely hate Trumps 15% corp tax. 

Finally, I don't tune into debates to see them "and my opponent would have you..." for most of their answers.  I want to hear "my plan is..."

Wait, not finally:

Name something good about your opponent.

That was a great ending question!

Baruch

#2
ACA would be even worse, if Pharaoh Obama hadn't waved his staff of Ra ... and held off the small business mandates!

I do not agree that everything the government touches turns to turds ... nor does everything the government touches turn to tulips.

Just listened to the Stephan Molyneux Youtube review of yesterday's debate ... I don't always agree with him, but at least he thinks for himself.

But as I have said before, probably both candidates are actors, following a predetermined script, and will be elected or not based on a predetermined Diebold vote count ... gotta love that CIA!

I agree it would be chaos if all the rich and powerful got what was coming to them, in a genuine state of justice, not the Nixonian farce it is now.  I would agree with the Bushes, Kennedys and Clintons ... only the extension of pardon should extend to all Americans, not just the Country Club class.  President Pharaoh has been even more active than President Clinton, in pardoning drug dealers and other threats.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

SGOS

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 10, 2016, 06:55:33 PM
The pussygate apology

Trump had all weekend to prepare for this one and he did okay at first, acknowledging his mistake and apologizing to the American people.  And then he jumps into some bizzare diatribe about ISIS.

He did that other times during the night. Jumping onto an irrelevant issue to the original question.  That jarred me also.  I think once (maybe more) he would begin to answer, jump to another topic, and then jump to still another.  I would try to grasp the relevance, get lost in my confusion, and realize he was changing topics without rhyme or reason.  Politicians do this all the time, but they usually make a smooth enough transition that you don't recognize they avoided the question until much later.  Oddly, Trump doesn't seem to have that skill.

His skills lie in what he did most of last night.  He's a great attacker.  In my counseling courses, we learned about something called congruence.  It's when a person's manner is congruent with his inner nature.  Everything works together; Unconscious motives, body language, facial expressions, voice tone all come together to reveal the real person.  Others pick up on it, and the individual feels comfortable with himself.  It's considered an ideal goal.

If you rate the winner of a debate on believability and a sense that the person is being real, I would give the win to Trump, and I think that's the part of him that his supporters relate to ("Trump says it like it is").  It's not necessarily like it is, but it's like HE is.  It's him being real.  He was not in that zone in the first debate.  Last night he re-found his zone.

If you rate the winner as the one knowing the most about policy and somewhat being able to articulate a plan to implement it, then I'd give the win to Clinton.  From what I heard on the radio today, most gave Clinton a slight edge, including the BBC (an outside observer).

Overall, I think Trump helped himself last night, partly because he didn't appear as impotent as he did in the first debate.  He didn't really say anything of substance, but he nurtured and comforted his ardent supporters with a confident stage presence, and gave his supporters less reason to jump ship.  I don't know if Clinton helped herself as much.  She didn't make a good case for Obamacare.  She tried, but the program is too unpopular to waste time defending it.  Obama even said earlier that it might be time to reconsider single payer, giving her an opportunity to consider revamping the whole healthcare thing into something more people would support.

How would I rate the debate over all?  Not good.  I thought it was tawdry, cheap, and a distasteful exhibition of wasted political potential.  Before I watched it (I was streaming it), they were showing previous debates all afternoon going way back.  When I tuned in they were at Reagan and Carter.  And all of the debates I watched were far superior with much more substantive discussion and thoughtful consideration given to issues; At least compared to last night's Cross Fire format.  Even though I never gave those earlier debates much credit, they represented something sorely needed in today's political discussion.

Baruch

Mastery of foreign policy talking points?  Well ... at least Clinton seems to be able to memorize her powerpoint bullets, and repeat the same platitudes over and over again.  She has feelings, and expresses them .... but a plan to actually do something, that ain't it.  But then Trump doesn't memorize powerpoint bullets as well as she does.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hydra009

#5
Quote from: chill98 on October 10, 2016, 08:32:18 PMI was able to stay tuned in better this time. Trump did better, a whole 25 minutes before he began interrupting.  I focused intently on the ACA (obamacare) portion.  It became apparent Clinton has no real comprehension of the disaster it is OR she refuses to acknowledge the failings which are immense.   Obamacare has had a very negative effect on many people I know.
I'll have to take your word on that.  Admittedly, I know little about the healthcare situation besides the fact that Americans pay more for their healthcare than people in other developed countries.

In broad terms, I'd like to see healthcare costs more in line with other developed countries while retaining good quality healthcare and expanding coverage to people who otherwise couldn't afford it.  Whichever plan gets as much of that accomplished as possible is good enough for me.

One issue that I consider extremely important is climate change.  We recently hit the 400 parts-per-million threshold at all observation stations, and it's going to be at least that for the foreseeable future.  This is the most important problem of the 21st century.  And we have two candidates - one who believes it is a threat and would ratchet it down slowly (but at an almost certainly inadequate pace) and another candidate who doesn't take it seriously and whose energy policies essentially amount to a lone session of russian roulette with all the chambers loaded.  Choosing between these two candidates is a no-brainer, but it's not a great outcome either way.

QuoteFinally, I don't tune into debates to see them "and my opponent would have you..." for most of their answers.  I want to hear "my plan is..."
Agreed.

Atheon

Polls and analyses again show Clinton winning.

Trump tried to blame Bill Clinton for Trump's own failings. Trump crept around the stage like a petulant creep when Hillary was addressing the issues masterfully. Hillary spoke factfully, while Trump lied. Trump threatened to throw Hillary in jail if he won: that is a BIG loser line in my book; it shows him to be the dictator wannabe that he is. He also dug up a panel of debunked and discredited Bill Clinton accusers and invited them to the debate to try to rattle Hillary; it failed, of course because Hillary is classy.

You don't win a debate by lying and threatening. You win a debate with facts and reason.

It was no contest. Hillary beat Trump.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Baruch

Unfortunately, it is probably already too late for Global Warming abatement.  Humans don't consider the common good, except rarely.

The US pays approximately 2x for health care per capita than Canada ... which is a comparable level of culture.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

PickelledEggs

The "Jail Hillary" also appeals to "Bernie or Bust"ers because they want her jailed too.

It's very characteristic of how a dictator would act. Jail political opponents, though.... Yeah. That's great...

Jason78

America doesn't really have much of a choice this year does it?   Y'all need more political parties.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

SGOS

#10
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2016, 06:16:51 AM
Unfortunately, it is probably already too late for Global Warming abatement. 

I wonder about that too.  Global warming is slow (in human timeframes), but it has tremendous inertia.  It has so much inertia that we didn't even identify it happening or recognize its ultimate potential for a couple hundred years while we were already busily adding greenhouse gasses to the environment.  The climate remained as stable as the rest of the interglacial period that nourished human success.

Now we have reached a benchmark, where the first measureable differences are showing up. People act like global warming can be stopped on a dime and reversed at the exact geological moment it becomes a crisis.  I wouldn't bet on it, and I remember learning that 30 or 40 years ago.  It's more than moving on to alternative fuels at this point.  With the melting of the artic ice now in progress, and the loss of heat reflecting ice that causes the climate to warm, even without burning fossil fuels, the secondary effects have taken control.  The loss of forests and their huge stores of carbon would have to be reversed, and that can't happen in a human lifetime.  Secondary dangers, like the release of methane gas from arctic permafrost are now set in motion, and take on a life of their own.  How to you reverse things like that?  You can't build an artificial refrigeration system and bring down global temperatures by the 2 degrees it takes.  My guess is that there are cycles now springing into action that we don't even recognize yet.

Just as the inertia of warming held itself in check for hundreds of years while mankind fiddled, It's likely that the inertia of its increasing momentum (the operative word being "increasing"), will not be reversed so easily.  Even if we had the political will, which we don't, the technology to reverse the process is part of a distant future, if it exists at all.

Talk of "before it's too late" may be meaningless.  We may have crossed that threshold 50 years ago.  But don't tell this to Republicans.  It would form the basis for their next argument against taking action:  "It's too late, so why bother?"

Atheon

Technology needs to be introduced to remove some of the CO2 from the atmosphere. One day we will terraform other planets, but we will probably get our first experience in this technology by terraforming Earth.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Cavebear

Trump is eliminated as a Presidential candidate (FINALLY) by his own past and current hatreds.  The Presidential campaign is over.  All that remains is to see how badly the truly crazy part of the base drags the convention Republicans into wrack and ruin in the House and Senate.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Atheon

Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2016, 09:17:06 AM
Trump is eliminated as a Presidential candidate (FINALLY) by his own past and current hatreds.  The Presidential campaign is over.  All that remains is to see how badly the truly crazy part of the base drags the convention Republicans into wrack and ruin in the House and Senate.
If the SS TrumpTanic takes down the Republicans in the House and Senate, that would be an added bonus. If his campaign leads to an extinction-level event for the Republican Party, that would be sweet indeed! With the Republicans gone, a true progressive party could rise to challenge the Democrats from the left.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Cavebear

Indeed, I suspect the history books 50 years from now will mention Federalists, Whigs, and Republicans in the same sentence as failed Parties.

I suspect there will be a gradual coalescence of Centrists, Unionists, and Moderate Conservatives forming a sort of Centrist/Union/Middle Class Party.  I have no idea what they will call themselves, but the Middle Class has to be reconstructed for the US to succeed.  It won't by down-driven by the Republicans nor up-driven by the Democrats.

If it isn't organic and generic, it won't work.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!