"Real Reason White People Say, 'All Lives Matter.' "

[PickelledEggs]

Yeah. It's almost like... you can actually find a way to achieve a goal and communicate a message peacefully. Weird.

Never would have thought that...

*blatant sarcasm*

[Shiranu]

Where to start...

A. The LGBT+ movement is an exception that proves the rule. For every one LGBT+ movement that ended "peacefully", there are 2000 movements that required or escalated into violence... for every Ghandi, there are 500 Queveras, Toussaint L'Ouvertures & Malcom Xs. By all means it is a movement that should be looked to for inspiration, as should Ghandi's (though his was far from peaceful and VERY inconvenient to average people) or... well, really very few movements because, as drunkenshoe said, the very nature of revolution is inherently conflictive.

B. You are comparing a community that is both fluid (in that any family can have a gay relative) but also (relatively) more affluent and educated that minorities to a community that faces on a whole far worse educational standards and economic conditions and expecting them to behave the same. Additionally the support for the LGBT movement has been huge in the media thanks to how open Hollywood has been to the community, whereas African Americans still are highly underrepresented and often given stereotypical roles. I think this is a very short-sighted and naive view at best, and that is only if it is truly said in ignorance and not with bias. And to be fair to you GSO, that's not necessarily how I interpreted you bringing it up, I only saw your post as saying they are a good example of how to do it as opposed to how BLM "should" be doing it.

There are a few other factors with that... you can hide your sexuality, you cant hide your race, so it is something you have to openly face 24/7 from the moment you meet someone. Likewise this makes the lines quite clear; there is us and there is them. You don't have to worry about your son or daughter being randomly born black... it just will not happen. There were more, but I just got off a 10 hour shift and am brain-farting atm.

Tl;dr - Yes, the LGBT community is a good example, but there are way more factors that went into it than just, "They are peaceful, why can't everyone else just be like them!". The sarcasm falls flat when the position is actually thought about more deeply than just the surface.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

No peaceful protest ever gotten any results in the US.

[Shiranu]

*cringe* You cant have your cake and eat it too (what you will do with it if you cant eat it, I dunno... )...

A. This implies that the rioting has anything to do with BLM, which... if we roll with that assumption... means that the rioting that took place in the Civil Rights Movement had anything to do with it and thus MLK. Or as posted earlier, that the rioting over Vancouver losing the Stanley Cup is therefor a negative upon the Canucks organization.

B. Have you read MLK's "Letter From A Birmingham Jail"? In it he specifically says the objective of protesters going to places like Birmingham and the other deeply-racist towns in the South is to provoke a response and make the issue something that can no longer be ignored. He is everything that I have heard people here complain about; divisive, combative and... above all else... inconvenient.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/01/dont-criticize-black-lives-matter-for-provoking-violence-the-civil-rights-movement-did-too/?utm_term=.44dffc95fe7f


https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

[Nonsensei]

His dream remains unrealized.

[Shiranu]

Also, MLK on some of yall...

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."


Trust me... MLK is not the poster boy yall want to gather behind :P.

[drunkenshoe]

It's remarkable the LGBTQ community managed to go from gay sex being illegal and a mental illness to national gay marriage equality in less than thirty years. Somehow we did it with a minimum of property destruction, assaults and shootings.

We can think many reasons.

-First of all the most of the LGBTQ community is white. So the groups have 'advanced' far more quickly because of the very issue we talk about here and got a wider support because of this reason.

-Gay people in general also had a chance to survive by integrating to heteronormative system. You can hide your homosexuality, you can't hide your skin colour.

-Also related to this, gay people do/did not get shot on sight because they were looking suspicious and also obviously gay and so fit a bill of a traditionally created villian. Hate crimes commited against gay people are mostly commited by people they know or acquinted. Most people are NOT programmed to think gay people are genetically prone to commit crimes. Gay culture is not seen as something equal to a crime culture. (There are people who 'think', they are pedophiles or prone commit other crimes just because of their orientation  -prostitution, drug selling, prone to rape children...etc and many other bullshit- but they are mostly a made up, promoted agendas against them. And through all the history they are pushed to live in such horrible conditions, because they are not/were not 'legitimate' members of the society. So gay marriage was about letimising their existence in the first place.

-In Western countries, the legalisation of gay marriage issue is some sort of a bar. Wiki- "As of June 2016, thirteen European countries legally recognize and perform same-sex marriage, namely Belgium, Denmark, [nb 1] Finland (effective from 2017), France, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, [nb 2] Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom."

United States of America has/had to catch up with these Western norms or it loses legitimacy as a first world western country and 'the land of freedom'. Now, I know that most of you have this perception of your own culture and hold the idea that it is not much affected from other cultures esp. in domestic issues, it is a delusion -it is bullshit and bad for you- and as much as America is its own village, there are things it can't afford to leave alone to itself and needs to help climb the wall.

Culturally and socially there is a constant comparison made between American society and European societies by the both parts. European society hold this cultural bar for American culture and there is a need of keeping the unity and a consistent sync more or less. While the whole EU is about to embrace gay marriage, America can't just sit down and watch it.

And this is how gay marriage was supported from many channels, most importantly politically. Besides the general hope, people were actually surprised when it passed and that was by one vote.

So it has become internationally and domestically beneficial and profitable to the American society legalise gay marriage in the US. It wasn't done because American society loooves LGBTQ people. LGBTQ community jumped a class, they are now equal and that boosts everything about them from their daily life to general relations and productivity in the society, it is now hard to marginalise them and push them out of the common daily life and jobs. Their identity is now 'legitimized'. And as the generation goes it will be harder. So it was politically supported in a suitable time, without any conflict and advanced very swiftly.

But in the end, as a motion, it took to legalise a private matter between two individuals to legitimise the identity of LGBTQ people, transform them into 'normal, nuclear families with children', 'people who holds normal jobs and pay taxes.' A group of people getting married to each other, infact in real life, is not something that directly affects anyone's lives against the issue. The major issue with LGBT community the white religious class has that they would be equal to them. The first class. 

This is where the rubber meets the road. It's not about what is written in the Bible or who believes in what. That's just fucking verse and propaganda. Nobody believes in anything, but themselves. It's about how a community define themselves, where they see themselves in a given culture. It's the cultural hierarchy.

And what happened as a result? There is a rise in the hate crimes commited against LGBTQ people. And the more they get into life, it is going to get worse.
(Orlando attack is not a common attack to LGBTQ people and the legalising gay marriage has a lot to do with it. Meanwhile Europe is dealing with violent attacks on LGBTQ parades. Like the one in Paris in 2013. And if this happens long enough there will be a response.)

-On the other hand, Racism against black people is NOT something that can be solved by the channel of a resolution of a private matter between individuals. Its historical, systematic and institutional background is different than what LGBTQ community and individuals faced. I am not saying their oppression doesn't fall in those categories. I'm saying it is different.

While LGBTQ people need to get out from their closet and find each other; their community and learn from each other a specific culture and background, being black is not like that.

Black people do not get out and find other black people and black community to face the oppression against them. It is a race; there is no where to hide. They cannot get married opposite sex and hide. They get born in that community and grow up in that culture, they inherit everything negative and positive about it from childhood; the hatred, the rage, the historical sense of their 'place' in the soicety.

And different than legalising gay marriage, black people having an equal standing with white people directly affects the life of everyone. First of all when this happens, white people will drop class. They are not even aware now, but they will get aware then and may be then they will get how really actually everything is first about them, but not because they are more in numbers, but because they are white. Most of them is going to hate that. Trust me, even the people who pride themselves on supporting equality passionately will have an identity crisis, this is happening now in America as we speak. It has been going on for some time.

-On feeling rage and hatred. While a black president who -besides, the usual bullshit politics as every other enforced- put at least some dignity back in the chair after that half witted, carbon waste, war criminal threw America in to garbage and they are watching cops, vigilantes shooting their people for nothing getting away with it. White supremacist commiting mass shootings cannot even be defined as 'domestic terrorism'. An openly racist presidential candidate -he has a chance to win, he is presidential candidate, just think that alone- talking out of his ass, vomiting posion around and applauded by the half of the country.

The most important thing is nobody talks openly about racism. Because 'nobody is racist in America'. They are just some problems. Whenever that is up, only the South is racist. 'Oh them live in the south, you know'. Translation: 'There are places black people can't even go, we call them racists.'

Whenever anything done against black people up, be it the cop shootings or something else, it is all about black crime rate and self defense. Any kind of protest, be it peaceful or violent gets the same backlash. While everyone blames these people for 'taking revenge', 'racial supremacy' getting pissed of by a man running aroud screaming 'beat up every white people', when it is a about a peaceful, meaningful protest, it is all about how it shouldn't have been done. The blacklash against a footballer and a bunch of violent people rioting in the street around is THE SAME.

The culture is not just inherently, systematically, institutionally racist against black people, it is VICIOUS. And that's what they are giving back in a fertile political climate within the limits of protest group dynamics. Infact BLM is a typical protest group from head to toe. But in white eyes, they are not even allowed to harbour rage or hatred. But of course, they need to turn their cheek and demonstrate a passifist protest so white pople should buy it and clap them. They should give a good show. And by doing that they should live with their victimhood with their black pride and be graceful about it too. Stop disturbing the vanilla culture with their reality, right?

You know what is so ironic about most of the opinions on the issue in limits of this forum?

Bunch of white people are getting so emotionally jacked up and pissed off watching the BLM videos, calling BLM a 'black supremacist group full of hatred' just by LOOKING at media material they draw and reflect this HATE and ANGER, sitting in a chair infront of a computer, because it is 'unfair and unjust', but their only 'criticism' is that 'they are HATEFUL and ANGRY; they are calling me racist'.

Now, imagine what would have happened if these people had been born black into the American society. I'd like to say 'pot meet kettle', but it is not accurate. It's more like 'Pot stop looking down at your nose and get down from your high horse or you are going to fall down on your face'.

Why BLM has become violent? Why black protest groups and blacks are violent?

They are not. They are not extra violent than white people. America is going through a struggle and these are the natural consequences of it. Their violence is now seen as something 'extra' because White violence is the law of the human culture and far more vicious, systematic and have many forms. White culture, power and wealth is based on systematic violence against nonwhite people and their cultures. White culture is responsible from the major crimes against humanity, genocides and attrocities, wars and invasions, mass destruction. They are the CITY HALL. That's how they have become the city hall.

And when given a little of white medicine, suddenly everybody gets into a psychotic break down and start talking to themselves about pigments and white sunburns and giving away bananas in gorilla costume and scream blatant absurd lies as 'All lives matter!' Nice jerking off. As long as you know it for what it is.

Well, no, all lives do not matter. And the lives that do not matter will try to do anything to make theirs matter. It's human reality. That's how they arrived to this point and how they will got further.

If BLM is outlawed and crushed down there will be others. This is not a project with a deadline. They will come and go and the culture will change pushed and pulled, beaten up between these explosions. In some eras they will calm down disappear, in some they will rise and explode. Because this is what that has always happened and always will be.

But there are things I can guranatee you that will never happen.

Nobody is going to be able
-to control people,
-tell them what they should think and feel; who to hate or not
-check protest groups and dictate them on how to react
-'pull the plug' on some reactive movement
-redefine and correct human reality or 'fix the errors' in it.

[drunkenshoe]

I'd remind you the fact that he was murdered assasinated by a white supremacist as a result of his nonviolent achievements. A veteran who served in WII, saving the world.

Yet American culture has not even come to the terms with this crime against humanity, but not just one man's life, as a part of systematic racism against black people. You cannot see-hear any words of 'white supremacism' uttered in the matter ofdeath of Martin Luther Kıng. Because that wouldn't do. That would be confirming a fact against the poor white people under ever threat of everyone else.

I just know the cliché @Nonsensei threw as 'sigh, his dreams unrealised' very well. Something almost absurd in a picture today not that hasn't changed, let alone 50 years ago, gone for the worst. I probbaly have heard that line uttered by a white character in Hollywood movies how many times now? Luther's dreams are secretly coded dreams, only white people can get it.


Ye gawds, I think I get a better grasp of what black people call 'white bullshit' every day. Hang in there America.

[Baruch]

No, I am saying it is a natural consequence.

That is why I have a problem with naturalism ... not that I can do anything about it ;-(

On MLK ... his reputation was whitewashed ... so that White folks could accept a sanitized version of his message.  In that way, his real threat, against the Vietnam War and against Capitalism (he was a Christian socialist) could be neutralized ... in addition to him being directly neutralized.  Most White folk had a hard time with the Civil Rights stuff, but they would never have tolerated a pacifist and socialist undermining Johnson's business deals.  Today MLK is like a Christian saint ... we forget that they never bathed (lived with the destitute), and that they weren't made of pretty stained glass.

[Jack89]

Yeah because while violent people in BLM makes BLM a racist hate group, gorilla mask racists or Christian White Supremacist killing people don't even touch the Christian White you -you are a Catholic, right?- because ya know, 'not all white people'. What bullshit.

And if we apply your general 'logic', your 'opinion' on BLM has nothing to do with you being a White Catholic -I am guessing it is 'not all Catholics!' now- and I should take this as an independent thought on the issue. Bullshit number 2.

Human cvilisation suffers because of people like you. Not angry people giving violent reactions in streets. While they are a result, with your reactions and opinions and the belief you  belong to, you represent the EVER standing cause, the reason. From your world view and general perspective of defining transgenderism as mental illness to your repeated reaction to cop shootings and every thread on conflict with blacks as 'black crime rate, black crime rate...black crime rate, balck racism, hatred', you are a typical bigot.

A bigot Catholic. What a shocker. Or wait, I shouldn't jump on conclusions, may be you are a 'true' Catholic, eh?

You're really focused on my religion for some reason.  You should pop into my church and look around before you make assumptions, as you're wont to do.  White, Hispanic, black, Asian, you name 'em, we got 'em.  I'm visiting my father in Oregon and the Priest at the Catholic Church in his town is from India.  The only problem I have with him is that he has a thick accent and I sometimes have difficulty understanding his homily.
Call me names if it makes you feel better, but I don't hate anyone to include blacks, transgender people, or whoever, even if I disagree with their views.  I think certain movements, ideologies, etc. are counterproductive and dangerous, and I have no problem expressing my opinion on them.  BLM has nothing but misguided sentiment and a few isolated incidents of police brutality and wrongful killings.  And now the default view of BLM to any killing of a black man by a cop, white or otherwise, is assumed to be a racist incident and riots ensue.  BLM promotes and feeds off of division just like all movements and ideologies based on identity politics and victim mentality. 

[drunkenshoe]

I didn't 'focus' your religion first and thought you are a bigot because of that. I am reading your posts and think that you are a bigot because of your opinions and I am aware there is a connection to your religion that doesn't have to be scriptural, because you are consistent. The comfort and the 'side' your belief, your Catholicism provides you is exactly the same delusion with your 'opinions' on the issue. It doesn't matter how diverse your group is.

Jack, you are not a part of my life. Writing you a paragraph on how I see your world view does not make me feel anything in particular. Exactly like you, I am expressing my opinion. You are not offering an original idea. Your opinions are the ready mainstream convictions of the white community -religious or secular- that has been put out there since the beginning and you are basically repeating the same things over and over again. They are not even opinions any more but something learned; an automatic response. The same response that was given to black people of King's time, and what was given now to BLM doesn't matter how different they are. Don't let the myopic look and the heroship built after his death decieve you. Response is the same.

Your country is in struggle, it is going through a difficult era, a process of change. Although when asked, everyone is 'aware', but you -and almost all the white people like you- want change to happen without any struggle, discomfort, disturbance, disorder, without touching your conformist lives, not even without making you despondent about it watching a media piece. Because everything is about you. Call it the culture, the human nature...etc...everything occurs in between, what you see is 'what is about you or not'. And you are expressing that struggle as a danger to the 'society', because it is 'against' you and as far as you can see, you are that 'society'. Guess what, you are not.

You people want change without struggle. What's more, you want the struggle to fit your expectations. You want to fix reality. This is not just very naively delusional, it is also a fundemantally 'religous' frame of mind and perspective. It describes a firm 'belief' in the system and defines the city hall and the culture it created as if it is the omnipotent, all powerful god's work and paints everything against it as 'wrong' when it disturbs the 'balance' that you are used to. A balance where you are the first class, because of your skin colour. Frankly, it's dumb. It's as dumb as trying to cure a child by praying, it is dumb as believing that gay people cause hurricanes. Doesn't matter if you are a believer or an atheist at this point. By 'religious' I don't mean organised religions obviously.

Now, I am sure that you don't think an ill child could be cured by praying or gay people cause hurricanes, but please do not expect me to treat you different than any other believer, while I see the most athiests drowning in religious thinking when it comes this issue and similar ones. 

[Baruch]

Fixing reality is what politics is all about.  And of course it is delusional and chaotic.  Going thru changes?  Read Heraclitus from Ephesus, just over the hill from you, sheesh!

[Hakurei Reimu]

BLM are cargo culting MLK's civil rights movement. The plain fact is that unless you could take insult, injury and bullying without being provoked yourself, you were not allowed to march with the King. MLK's civil rights movement, and Ghandi's protest movement before him, were very disciplined. No action by either of these moments would have provoked the violent response they did if they were carried out by whites. It was the contrast between black people (and Indians) acting like civilized people and suffering the onslaught of white people acting like brutes, completely reversing the prevailing attitudes at the time, that made the protests so effective.

That's the element you lose when you shout stuff like "beat up every white person!" and the like. When you do this, you're just a brute, even if you never raise your fists, and the protest just turns into brute-on-brute action that, while entertaining, is void of any moral impact. Why should I take seriously any person who advocates an assault on my person, even in jest, or as part of a protest, just because of my race? Why should I feel morally outraged that people spoiling for a fight get it?

Yes, both the original civil rights movement and the BLM movement wish to provoke violent response, but the way they provoked that response makes all the difference in the world how they will be regarded. The original civil rights marchers provoked violent response by being civil people insisting on being treated civilly; the Milwaukee protesters were spoiling for a fight. One garners much more sympathy than the other, and I'll leave it for an exercise for the reader to figure out which.

[drunkenshoe]

BLM are cargo culting MLK's civil rights movement. The plain fact is that unless you could take insult, injury and bullying without being provoked yourself, you were not allowed to march with the King. MLK's civil rights movement, and Ghandi's protest movement before him, were very disciplined. No action by either of these moments would have provoked the violent response they did if they were carried out by whites. It was the contrast between black people (and Indians) acting like civilized people and suffering the onslaught of white people acting like brutes, completely reversing the prevailing attitudes at the time, that made the protests so effective.

You cannot define the identity of black people as a minority over all with the same terms what was in King's time. The contrast between then and now is something bigger than how the dynamic protest worked.

They are NOT protesting against segregation anymore. Seperate fountains, seperate schools, seperate bathrooms...seperate sport leagues etc...are not a problem anymore. When you are fighting against making your existence at some place legitimate from scratch, the dynamics of protest is different.

Now cops are shooting black people or a vigilante gets away with shooting and killing a black person, because he is likely to be some sort of a villian because of his race. And the country had a black president for two terms. That provokes people more. Obama's existence is in a way what boosts more provocative, violent reactions. The political climate is very definitive on the protests.

That's the element you lose when you shout stuff like "beat up every white person!" and the like. When you do this, you're just a brute, even if you never raise your fists, and the protest just turns into brute-on-brute action that, while entertaining, is void of any moral impact. Why should I take seriously any person who advocates an assault on my person, even in jest, or as part of a protest, just because of my race? Why should I feel morally outraged that people spoiling for a fight get it?

As most of the white people don't/didn't regard any black activist groups against racism in any way to begin with before certain individuals in BLM got violent, I don't really think this is a good way of looking at it. It's just being personally offended by it.

Yes, both the original civil rights movement and the BLM movement wish to provoke violent response, but the way they provoked that response makes all the difference in the world how they will be regarded. The original civil rights marchers provoked violent response by being civil people insisting on being treated civilly; the Milwaukee protesters were spoiling for a fight. One garners much more sympathy than the other, and I'll leave it for an exercise for the reader to figure out which.

It seems like every movement existed in some time 'before' has some legitimacy after a new one occurs, after the time has changed. Be it black groups or feminists. Not when people facing their protests. The groups existed in 60s are legitimate for people who were born much later, but 'radical' for the ones who lived them through AND for people in 60s the movements before were the legitimate, real protests.

My guess is that none of those groups are after any kind of sympathy, but somehow the white community still thinks that they need to bow to them; convince them for their causes and reasons. I am not saying this is wrong or correct or this or that. It looks like that's the way it is.

[Baruch]

Yes, 1968 is so over!  We have Seri to tell us what to do now ;-)

Fact is, the Civil Rights movement was decapitated in 1968 ... and we all pretended it was a done deal ... that is why this lumpen bigotry has made a come-back.  It isn't over until it is over.