Assisted Suicide

[Cavebear]

My mom died in Oregon.  She had ovarian cancer surgery in Portland.  And I was in the room when the Dr. gave his spiel about the assisted suicide that he is required to make.  So, I've actually heard it, Baruch.  She was cleared to be on the list--then the Dr. 'cautioned' her that since she was taking insulin to be very careful not to give herself a large overdose of it--that would be fatal.  Mom then halted the assisted suicide action; it is a bit complicated.  But she never was without a large supply of insulin.

She had the choice and that is all that matters...  The actual decision is irrelevent.

[Mike Cl]

She had the choice and that is all that matters...  The actual decision is irrelevent.

Yes, you are so right.  It was easy to tell that the Dr. was not opposed to giving her the knowledge of how to use the tools she had at her daily access.  She did not need to go through the hoops of the sane but complicated law that was there to help her end it all if that was a clear choice.  The choice was hers and that gave her a peace of mind she would not have had.  And it gave me a huge peace of mind, as well.

[Baruch]

While I am sympathetic to the situations your family members have been in ... you are not sympathetic to the different lessons I take from having one suicide and one attempted suicide in my own family.  I am not without experience myself.

We all want our way; the law, the doctors and society be damned ... when push comes to shove.  But I don't think that is ethical ... otherwise things a lot worse than your family situations can be justified by the family, the hospital or the government.

[Cavebear]

Yes, you are so right.  It was easy to tell that the Dr. was not opposed to giving her the knowledge of how to use the tools she had at her daily access.  She did not need to go through the hoops of the sane but complicated law that was there to help her end it all if that was a clear choice.  The choice was hers and that gave her a peace of mind she would not have had.  And it gave me a huge peace of mind, as well.

The doctor rule is "do no harm".  But that can also mean that ending life professionally is not a harm.  The doctors purpose is to ease life.  In some specific cases that can mean helping to free a person from meaningless pain.

[Mike Cl]

^This!  I've felt that way most of my life.

[Jack89]

I understand the sentiment, but at what point do you say, "ok, it's alright to kill this person now".  My dad has good days and bad at this point, and on the good days he says he wants to ride it out until he dies naturally.  On the bad days he says he wants to die, "right now".  He asked me to help him kill himself yesterday, and I refused.  This morning his spirits were up and we talked about how good Irish Creme tastes in morning coffee and joked about how his house keeper could kick his ass.

When we get to the point where we think a person is disposable, for any reason, we make room to expand on that reason. 

The Netherlands have allowed assisted suicide for about 30 years now and we see what happen when it becomes socially permissible to kill another person out of "mercy".  I just read an article about a woman who, in her 20s with "incurable" PTSD from rape, was euthanized - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sex-abuse-victim-with-incurable-ptst-allowed-to-die-by-lethal-injection_uk_57344013e4b0f0f53e35bf43.  There has been a dramatic increase in the number of people euthanized in the Netherlands over the years, and I suspect it has a lot to do with loosening of criteria, the worth of a person's life.

In Oregon, there were 16 people who committed assisted suicide under the new law when it was introduced in 1998, and gradually increased to 132 assisted suicide deaths in 2015.  What are the reasons for these suicides?  My dad has said he wants to end it now for various reasons, and chronic pain is not the one he talks about the most.  He says he want me to get on with my life and not spend so much time on him, or that he doesn't want to spend the money on his care, he would rather it go to me and my brother. 

It's not hard to see there's room for abuse, how immoral family members could cash in on this.  I also wonder how places that have had this in place for a while, like the Netherlands, will start to think of the worth of human life.  They've started killing young, physically healthy people because of mental illness.  What will it be next, the mentally ill homeless?  What about children with survivable birth defects, or Down Syndrome kids? How about poor people who can't afford medical care?  My dad's suicide drugs were about $700.00.  His stay in the long term care facility will cost him over $10,000 a month starting in December.  He's actually commented on this and thinks he should die by the end of the month because of it.

Should a person be able to make the choice to take their own life?  While I think the choice should be legally allowed, I don't it should be socially acceptable.  I think this is one of those things in which we should rely on informal social controls rather than formal ones.  But is that even possible nowadays?

[Baruch]

I think it is OK for the Dutch to have medically assisted suicide ... but not Americans.  The Dutch are sane, the Americans are not.

[aitm]

My brothers father in law was a wonderful man who adored his wife but when Alzheimer's stole his memory his wife would lock her bedroom door because he would wake up and not know where he was and think she was evil and grab a knife and chase her around while she screamed. Luckily, or not so, the police intervened one day……now SHE has to live with that memory as well. I am all for any assistance, let them go when they still have that choice, because once they don't have it any more…well……shit happens….and it always seems worse

[Baruch]

True ... old age sucks, and it is coming for both of us shortly.  Remember if you chase women around the room ... don't use a knife, use your Johnson ;-)

[Cavebear]

I understand the sentiment, but at what point do you say, "ok, it's alright to kill this person now".  My dad has good days and bad at this point, and on the good days he says he wants to ride it out until he dies naturally.  On the bad days he says he wants to die, "right now".  He asked me to help him kill himself yesterday, and I refused.  This morning his spirits were up and we talked about how good Irish Creme tastes in morning coffee and joked about how his house keeper could kick his ass.

When we get to the point where we think a person is disposable, for any reason, we make room to expand on that reason. 

The Netherlands have allowed assisted suicide for about 30 years now and we see what happen when it becomes socially permissible to kill another person out of "mercy".  I just read an article about a woman who, in her 20s with "incurable" PTSD from rape, was euthanized - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sex-abuse-victim-with-incurable-ptst-allowed-to-die-by-lethal-injection_uk_57344013e4b0f0f53e35bf43.  There has been a dramatic increase in the number of people euthanized in the Netherlands over the years, and I suspect it has a lot to do with loosening of criteria, the worth of a person's life.

In Oregon, there were 16 people who committed assisted suicide under the new law when it was introduced in 1998, and gradually increased to 132 assisted suicide deaths in 2015.  What are the reasons for these suicides?  My dad has said he wants to end it now for various reasons, and chronic pain is not the one he talks about the most.  He says he want me to get on with my life and not spend so much time on him, or that he doesn't want to spend the money on his care, he would rather it go to me and my brother. 

It's not hard to see there's room for abuse, how immoral family members could cash in on this.  I also wonder how places that have had this in place for a while, like the Netherlands, will start to think of the worth of human life.  They've started killing young, physically healthy people because of mental illness.  What will it be next, the mentally ill homeless?  What about children with survivable birth defects, or Down Syndrome kids? How about poor people who can't afford medical care?  My dad's suicide drugs were about $700.00.  His stay in the long term care facility will cost him over $10,000 a month starting in December.  He's actually commented on this and thinks he should die by the end of the month because of it.

Should a person be able to make the choice to take their own life?  While I think the choice should be legally allowed, I don't it should be socially acceptable.  I think this is one of those things in which we should rely on informal social controls rather than formal ones.  But is that even possible nowadays?

Helping a person to die is not a "harm".

[AllPurposeAtheist]

My dad is in pretty much the same boat, 87 and thinks he's going to die any time now. He's talked about suicide a few times and has the means with pain medication, both pills and fentynol patches, but he still has a wife to take care of and he would never leave her alone intentionally. He constantly tells us he doesn't want to be a burden and yet sometimes goes out of his way to be one. I never thought I would be his caregiver until a few years ago, but now I am.
Part of me wants him to stay alive for years to come and part of me hopes he'll die soon and painlessly in his sleep. It's very difficult to watch your family member shrivel up and slowly die and if my dad decided he wanted to die I would do whatever I can to make sure he could.  Problem with pills are the risks of puking them right back up, but I know how to do it. For obvious reasons I can't and won't say how, but I have the means and knowledge. 

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I think it is OK for the Dutch to have medically assisted suicide ... but not Americans.  The Dutch are sane, the Americans are not.

We as a nation just elected the Trumpster fire. It's painfully obvious we're not sane.

[Cavebear]

We as a nation just elected the Trumpster fire. It's painfully obvious we're not sane.

We will have to see where Trump takes us.  I think the decision was insane, but that is what democracy IS.  You get what you deserve, good or bad.

[Jack89]

Dad decided to take his suicide drugs yesterday and died around noon.  He was back and forth on taking them, but I think it was getting too hard for him to ride out the bad days.  He also thought he was being a burden, and that weighed into his decision, even though we did everything to convince him otherwise.  That part bothers me.  Anyway, he went peacefully.

[aitm]

My sympathies Jack, I throw a wish your direction, that in its own little way, it may be of comfort knowing that your father died as he wanted to live...by his own hand. I am not so arrogant to suggest you be comforted by that, but rather you seek comfort knowing that it was not by the hand of another.