Suffering as a virtue

[doorknob]

where's the virtue in suffering a heart attack? Where's the virtue in lupus, cancer or any of the other horrible illnesses that their good god made?

Even self inflicted suffering is not a virtue sorry but it's not at that point it's just a stupidity. There are many ways to learn lessons with out having to suffer. All though insight, and empathy created by suffering is a virtue perhaps. Is that a good reason for some one to suffer though? 

[Hijiri Byakuren]

where's the virtue in suffering a heart attack?

It prevents you from accidentally saying Candlejack and letting him get

[Mr.Obvious]

Christopher Hitchens dishes the shit on her in 'The Missionary Position'. It's a good read if you haven't already...  :-)

I liked the 'bullshit' episode of Penn and teller on Mother Theresa. Hitchens featured too.

[drunkenshoe]

This is a very important issue and apparently a very ancient one beyond organised religion. Last winter, while translating a study about early modern Europe, I had to read about the 'need for' suffering, pruitanism and it is relation to religion(s) and actually it is not as simple as it sounds.

There are also ideas that this is some sort of an attitude some people develop from childhood. Also about puritanism. Dr. Freud would have been thrilled I suppose, I am not.

So it could be that a couple of decades later, the common idea on this issue could be taken without the religious background.

[GSOgymrat]

So it could be that a couple of decades later, the common idea on this issue could be taken without the religious background.

Like everything else, I think attitudes toward suffering are psychological concepts that have been incorporated into religions. One could argue that identity politics is a secular manifestation of this concept of suffering as a virtue, where the oppression translates into moral currency. Assigning meaning or virtue to suffering seems to be tangentially associated with empathy, but empathy alone doesn't explain it. It also seems associated with the human urge to make meaning from events: Why does suffering exist? Why is this horrible thing happening?

These are just ideas bouncing around in my head.

[drunkenshoe]

Like everything else, I think attitudes toward suffering are psychological concepts that have been incorporated into religions. One could argue that identity politics is a secular manifestation of this concept of suffering as a virtue, where the oppression translates into moral currency. Assigning meaning or virtue to suffering seems to be tangentially associated with empathy, but empathy alone doesn't explain it. It also seems associated with the human urge to make meaning from events: Why does suffering exist? Why is this horrible thing happening?

These are just ideas bouncing around in my head.

Makes sense. It's very interesting though. I also wonder how many issues that could be explained by psyhcological concepts -also social psyhcology in a mass scale- are incorporated into religions.

[GSOgymrat]

Makes sense. It's very interesting though. I also wonder how many issues that could be explained by psyhcological concepts -also social psyhcology in a mass scale- are incorporated into religions.

In the most simplistic terms I'm of the opinion that biological needs (e.g. I need food) create psychological constructs (e.g. fight or flight), which through interactions with other lead to social constructs (e.g. cooperation), which all are expressed through religion. Religions are the narratives that have evolved over countless generations to explain our subjective and objective experience of human existence. Religion is an amalgam of psychology, sociology, philosophy, art and history.

One can tell a lot about an individual based on what religion he or she believes and what parts of the religion they value. Mother Teresa is an interesting case study. My husband, who is Catholic, greatly admired Mother Teresa but admits, "I think she was kind of mentally ill."

[trdsf]

I liked the 'bullshit' episode of Penn and teller on Mother Theresa. Hitchens featured too.

I've actually only just started watching that series -- I got a Hulu membership and it's on there.  So refreshing!

[GSOgymrat]

I've actually only just started watching that series -- I got a Hulu membership and it's on there.  So refreshing!

Thanks for saying it is on Hulu. I will check it out.

[drunkenshoe]

In the most simplistic terms I'm of the opinion that biological needs (e.g. I need food) create psychological constructs (e.g. fight or flight), which through interactions with other lead to social constructs (e.g. cooperation), which all are expressed through religion. Religions are the narratives that have evolved over countless generations to explain our subjective and objective experience of human existence. Religion is an amalgam of psychology, sociology, philosophy, art and history.

Agreed. Nicely put.

One can tell a lot about an individual based on what religion he or she believes and what parts of the religion they value. Mother Teresa is an interesting case study. My husband, who is Catholic, greatly admired Mother Teresa but admits, "I think she was kind of mentally ill."

There are also ideas about suffering and gender. That women are more likely to be affected by this, may be more open to it, prone to it -I don't know how to express- because of the imposed gender norm.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"If you hang long enough you become quite used to being hung."

Suffering sucks, it should never be forced on someone.

[trdsf]

Thanks for saying it is on Hulu. I will check it out.

Yeah, I got Netflix because it has House of Cards and because it's going to be the home of the new MST3K, and Hulu because it's the home of classic MST3K and Rifftrax -- Bullshit! turned out to be a bonus.  And I'd really prefer spending about $20 a month between Netflix and Hulu, than $50 a month for 600 cable channels, 595 of which I don't watch.

[Cavebear]

Well theists have to believe in sufferring in this world so that there is a hope of a better existence in the next world.  Otherwise, why try to do anything.Atheists generally think that making THIS world better is a smarter idea since it is the only one we have.

If it was up to the theists, we would all be living in caves up to our knees in mud and bones and praying that The Sky God didn't make the roof collapse on us...

[Baruch]

Well theists have to believe in sufferring in this world so that there is a hope of a better existence in the next world.  Otherwise, why try to do anything.Atheists generally think that making THIS world better is a smarter idea since it is the only one we have.

If it was up to the theists, we would all be living in caves up to our knees in mud and bones and praying that The Sky God didn't make the roof collapse on us...

We are living in high tech caves, up to our knees is excess stuff and praying that Trump of Hillary gets elected ;-)  Higher tech doesn't equal more advanced people, it just means the apes have gotten ahold of stuff they don't understand.

[Contemporary Protestant]

Well I think this is more of a failure of the English language because I think there is, secular, value in fasting, and doing some form of penance as well as meditation. For example, give twenty dollars to charity and then skip whatever outing or meal(s) that would have paid for while contemplating what more can be done besides giving money with the spare time. I also think that righting wrongs is important, and that is what penance ought to be. A petty example would be, say I go plant a few trees because I want to counter act my impact on pollution. Ultimately I can't have no carbon foot print but there is something in trying (and often failing) to help fix the problems I contribute to.
Meditation is just practical, pausing and reflecting, its calming and allows for perspective that can help with problem solving