Suffering as a virtue

[GSOgymrat]

“There’s something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion.” â€" Mother Teresa

The canonization of Mother Teresa prompted me to think about whether suffering is virtuous. Suffering is clearly valued in Christianity (see here https://bible.org/seriespage/20-doctrine-suffering ) but does suffering have merit in secular moral philosophies, philosophies which typical focus on avoiding or reducing harm and suffering? One distinction I was considering is that suffering is different than self-abnegation or asceticism. Inducing one’s one discomfort or denying one’s own pleasure for the purpose of achieving a goal is different from experiencing a painful situation under which one has no control or has no clear future benefit. Is there value or virtue in suffering?

Mother Teresa to a man in pain: “You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you.”
Infuriated man: “Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me!”

[Shiranu]

I think there is value in any negative, if you dig deep enough. But ideally suffering should only be a product of asceticism, and I don't think the knowledge you learn from suffering necessarily out-weighs the pain of enduring it.

That said, suffering is a part of life... so the best we can do is learn what we can from it. In that way I guess you could say I see it as a "virtue", but only because of the inavoidability of it. It's that, or let it be an inconvenience.

[GSOgymrat]

I think there is value in any negative ...

I would need some convincing on this part because I think there are some situations that just suck and there is nothing good about it.

[SGOS]

I don't see suffering as a virtue at all.  The meme that suffering is a virtue was made up to make sufferers feel good about suffering.  This is handy propaganda that benefits the oppressors and other authoritarian institutions.  Suffering is just suffering, no matter how glorious a spin you put on it.  Suffering minor annoyances without whining too much might be a virtue, but that's a whole different dynamic.

[Baruch]

This is a very deep theological question ... for me as well.  Theodicy.  But speaking secularly ... there are secular philosophy that is pro-pain, neutral, or anti-pain.  Sadism, Stoicism, and Hedonism.  So I can't say there is a single secular view on this.

The best I can suggest is the "make lemonade" solution.  Whatever you get handed, if it is sweet, enjoy it while it lasts.  If it is sour, turn it into as much good as you can, while it lasts.  But don't enjoy it ... overcome it.

[GSOgymrat]

I'm still processing this topic but one thought is that the suffering of someone creates the opportunity for others to empathize, do good actions and promote reciprocative prosocial behaviors. I'm rejecting the Christian ideas that suffering is a test of faith, has a purpose or makes one a better person, i.e. more like Christ. If someone can learn something from suffering, that is great, perhaps it makes people appreciate the times they are not suffering, but I can't see suffering as anything other than something to be avoided.

[aitm]

You know, I don't know. I find myself punishing myself for "stupid" shit. For instance, I remember once I absentmindedly simply dropped a hammer on my foot, it was very painful yet instead of screaming and writhing in pain, I forced myself to endure it and shut up as punishment for being so stupid, similar instances unfortunately abound in my history. Of course, much of that attitude comes from my fathers incredibly high tolerance of pain, really, it was quite legendary in our parts of the state…..then they termed it "carpal tunnel syndrome"….and the legend was gone…..and I started crying like a little girl……(nothing against little girls)

[Baruch]

I'm still processing this topic but one thought is that the suffering of someone creates the opportunity for others to empathize, do good actions and promote reciprocative prosocial behaviors. I'm rejecting the Christian ideas that suffering is a test of faith, has a purpose or makes one a better person, i.e. more like Christ. If someone can learn something from suffering, that is great, perhaps it makes people appreciate the times they are not suffering, but I can't see suffering as anything other than something to be avoided.

On the original Jesus faith ... it would be best for everyone to be crucified by the Romans, but only for the right reasons.  It is Jewish masochism at its best.  The martyr culture starts in semitic cultures ... including Jews and Arabs.  It is not OK to be martyred as a Zealot (ISIS) but OK to be martyred as an innocent passenger in a bombed Tel Aviv bus.

[Unbeliever]

Suffering is only a virtue when someone else is doing it.

[trdsf]

Well, there are good reasons to subject one's self to certain sorts of suffering.  I've been dieting since May, and it's driving me up a wall, but I'm sticking to it because I needed to lose (and still need to lose a bit more) weight.

Suffering for suffering's sake, and making a virtue of it, that's another matter entirely, and just another piece of the S&M puzzle that is the relationship between a church and its adherents.  If someone's suffering poverty because they're lazy, they've rather brought it upon themselves.  If someone's suffering poverty because of local social problems that make it impossible for citizens to improve their lot, that's not a virtue, that's a reason to change society, not celebrate it.

[Youssuf Ramadan]

Mother Teresa to a man in pain: “You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you.”
Infuriated man: “Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me!”

Christopher Hitchens dishes the shit on her in 'The Missionary Position'. It's a good read if you haven't already...  :-)

[Sal1981]

Only if the end goal is worth it.

[Absurd Atheist]

“There’s something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion.” â€" Mother Teresa

The canonization of Mother Teresa prompted me to think about whether suffering is virtuous. Suffering is clearly valued in Christianity (see here https://bible.org/seriespage/20-doctrine-suffering ) but does suffering have merit in secular moral philosophies, philosophies which typical focus on avoiding or reducing harm and suffering? One distinction I was considering is that suffering is different than self-abnegation or asceticism. Inducing one’s one discomfort or denying one’s own pleasure for the purpose of achieving a goal is different from experiencing a painful situation under which one has no control or has no clear future benefit. Is there value or virtue in suffering?

Mother Teresa to a man in pain: “You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you.”
Infuriated man: “Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me!”

Calling something a virtue is inherently problematic, but regardless, I feel that the majority of people who say stuff like this don't suffer unjustly very frequently or for extended periods of time.

[trdsf]

Calling something a virtue is inherently problematic, but regardless, I feel that the majority of people who say stuff like this don't suffer unjustly very frequently or for extended periods of time.

Exactly.  These are people who can generally end their self-imposed 'suffering' at will.  Which makes one question whether it's actually suffering at all.

[Gerard]

It's a two edged sword. On the one hand you have people that for some reason (mostly religious) need to include suffering in their world view as a positive thing, in a way that vindicates that particular worldview. On the other hand there is the psychological need for those who have suffered or are still suffering to feel uplifted or even agrandised by the experience, for reasons of being comforted. These two things sometimes come together in a way satisfactory for both purposes. Reality remains of course that suffering is simply a byproduct of the natural and imperfect world we live in. And that is sucks.

Gerard