The Insanity of God

[SGOS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BilkOpQyHcA

Yet another evangelical film, this one is at one of the theaters around here as a one showing event tonight at 7:00 pm, one showing only, and is not scheduled again.  These types of special events usually feature a live televised event of something like the Metropolitan Opera, and patrons are charged a premium price, usually anywhere from 5 to 10 dollars over a regular admission.  I've only gone to one of these, a special showing of the original 1968 Planet of the Apes, where I shared the whole theater with only a mother and her three boys.

I saw this one listed today, and the title sort of implies that maybe they decided to show an atheist film, so I started researching it, but the title is misleading.  A so called documentary of a missionaries search to answer the question, "Is Jesus worth it?  They travel to places where Christians are most persecuted to see what happens to the faithful, and in the face of imprisonment and threat of torture and death, guess what?  The Christian faith remains unshaken... Yay God!

I enjoyed the part in the trailer that says, "Watch the suffering.  Experience the sacrifice," although admittedly only because of my own perverse sense of humor.  They don't show any sacrifice and suffering, but it was kind of ominous, except when, in defiance of Russian guards, it shows prisoners assembling outside their cells  lifting their palms upwards to the heavens and basking in shafts of meager sunlight that somehow finds it's way through the roof of the miserable prison.  So it must turn out all hunky dory in the end. 

This is not the exact same trailer I watched.  It starts out the same, but may not show the things I mentioned.  I didn't want to watch the whole trailer.  One was enough.  But I'm guessing this one will get the point across as well.  I question that it's really a documentary, as the scenes in the trailer are obviously rehearsed and filmed by actors.  But that's just a pedantic detail, I suppose.

[GSOgymrat]

The trailer reinforces my belief that Christians and I live on the same planet but different worlds.

[SGOS]

The trailer reinforces my belief that Christians and I live on the same planet but different worlds.

OK, I went back to fully watch this version of the trailer.  It left out my favorite part, "Watch the suffering.  Experience the sacrifice."   I suppose that that may have sent the message that Christians like to watch suffering and sacrifice , which is something better left unexamined in the Christian public image.  The original trailer I saw was no longer active when I tried to paste it into my post.

If I read your comment correctly, you would more likely accept Islam if it saved you from a beheading.  I would make an effort to convince my persecutors of that, although I'd try not to appear to eager so as not to look like a phony.  I'm not sure what would be the best strategy under those circumstances.

[GSOgymrat]

From my perspective Islam is even more outer limits. I wouldn't be over there because I disagree with the first line of the trailer "Our world is broken." I have no motivation to convert people to a religion. There are no souls to be saved.

[Hydra009]

I saw this one listed today, and the title sort of implies that maybe they decided to show an atheist film, so I started researching it, but the title is misleading.  A so called documentary of a missionaries search to answer the question, "Is Jesus worth it?  They travel to places where Christians are most persecuted to see what happens to the faithful, and in the face of imprisonment and threat of torture and death, guess what?  The Christian faith remains unshaken... Yay God!

I enjoyed the part in the trailer that says, "Watch the suffering.  Experience the sacrifice," although admittedly only because of my own perverse sense of humor.  They don't show any sacrifice and suffering, but it was kind of ominous, except when, in defiance of Russian guards, it shows prisoners assembling outside their cells  lifting their palms upwards to the heavens and basking in shafts of meager sunlight that somehow finds it's way through the roof of the miserable prison.  So it must turn out all hunky dory in the end.

I've never understood this sort of argument.  Muslims have persecuted Christians.  What does that prove?  Christians have persecuted pagans.  Christians have persecuted Jews.  Even different denominations of Christians have persecuted each other.  Same with Muslims.  Practically every major group has historically been persecuted in some way.  I don't see how these people can point to a Christian martyr as proof of the veracity of Christianity without also pointing to a Muslim martyr as proof of the veracity of Islam.

And this whole train of thought reeks of the glorification of suffering and death.  I honestly can't think of anything crazier than being willing to kill or be killed for some invisible supernatural being.  There's nothing good about marching into North Korea with a Bible in hand and then languishing in jail.  What does that accomplish?  Nothing.  It's a pointless, stupid death.  For all their talk about their "culture of life", some of these people sure love throwing their lives away.

[Blackleaf]

Oh great. Another movie to reinforce the Christian persecution complex. At least this one doesn't look like it'll be quite as cringe worthy as the God's Not Dead movies.

[Baruch]

The Trial ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG0PDuUdhAc

[widdershins]

I've never understood this sort of argument.  Muslims have persecuted Christians.  What does that prove?  Christians have persecuted pagans.  Christians have persecuted Jews.  Even different denominations of Christians have persecuted each other.  Same with Muslims.  Practically every major group has historically been persecuted in some way.  I don't see how these people can point to a Christian martyr as proof of the veracity of Christianity without also pointing to a Muslim martyr as proof of the veracity of Islam.

They have selective vision.  I had a Witness in my office just yesterday (or Monday maybe?) trying to prove to me that Christianity is real because some guy died for his faith.  Why would he do that if it wasn't real?  I, of course, immediately pointed out suicide bombers of a different faith dying for their God all the time.  His response was that Allah was just their name for God or some such.  I was tired of talking to him and not at my best, so I didn't think at the time to point out how he has told me that Jehovah's Witnesses don't worship the same God as everyone else because they worship the TRUE version of God, so those other people are worshiping something else of the same description, from the sametext and with the same name.  I'm still not quite sure how that works.  It's like me saying that you aren't a fan of the same Stephen King as me because you don't see the motives of the clown in It the same way I do.  Because you don't read the text the same I am a fan of an entirely different Stephen King who wrote that book than the inferior one, who also wrote that book, that you are a fan of.

[SGOS]

They have selective vision.  I had a Witness in my office just yesterday (or Monday maybe?) trying to prove to me that Christianity is real because some guy died for his faith.  Why would he do that if it wasn't real?  I, of course, immediately pointed out suicide bombers of a different faith dying for their God all the time.  His response was that Allah was just their name for God or some such.  I was tired of talking to him and not at my best, so I didn't think at the time to point out how he has told me that Jehovah's Witnesses don't worship the same God as everyone else because they worship the TRUE version of God, so those other people are worshiping something else of the same description, from the sametext and with the same name.  I'm still not quite sure how that works.  It's like me saying that you aren't a fan of the same Stephen King as me because you don't see the motives of the clown in It the same way I do.  Because you don't read the text the same I am a fan of an entirely different Stephen King who wrote that book than the inferior one, who also wrote that book, that you are a fan of.

When I'm driving on along trip, I sometimes tune into a preacher station, I like the ones with the classic Evangelical accent.  It's something like a southern accent, but it has a cultivated style of its own that is unmistakable.  Anyway, one of them was on a rant and had built up a real head of steam.  It seems he had encountered a Muslim cleric recently, or so he claimed.  The cleric said there was no reason they couldn't see eye to eye, because after all, they both worshiped the same God.  Now this got the evangelical's hackles up and his juices flowing, and he proceeded to ream that cleric a new one, as any evangelical minister is trained to do.  He started out puttin' things straight by laying out the wide differences between the Muslim God, and his God.  By the end of the sermon, by golly, it was clear that the Muslim God was a total ass hole, completely vile in every aspect of his depraved nature, while the preacher's God was over pouring with love and salvation free for the taking.  I could just picture the preacher's fantasy, a product of his glorified ego, as he turned on his heels, and walked away after putting that damned Muslim in his place with a proper talkin' too.

[GSOgymrat]

This trailer touches upon a greater disconnect between me and Abrahamic religions than not believing in God. Christians feel there is something essentially wrong with the world and something essentially wrong with human beings. Religion tells them only God can fix it. I consider this perception of the world as essentially flawed to be a core psychological concept underlying these religions. There is also an idea illustrated in the trailer that there is virtue in suffering. These are ideas I don't relate to. I think because I have never shared these perceptions stories like the crucifixion of Jesus never had any emotional resonance for me, other than disgust. Christianity's message that we are flawed creatures living in a sinful world always felt like a lie. I never needed a God or a savior because although bad things happen in the world and people do bad things the world isn't "broken" and there is nothing essentially wrong with us.

[SGOS]

This trailer touches upon a greater disconnect between me and Abrahamic religions than not believing in God. Christians feel there is something essentially wrong with the world and something essentially wrong with human beings. Religion tells them only God can fix it. I consider this perception of the world as essentially flawed to be a core psychological concept underlying these religions. There is also an idea illustrated in the trailer that there is virtue in suffering. These are ideas I don't relate to. I think because I have never shared these perceptions stories like the crucifixion of Jesus never had any emotional resonance for me, other than disgust. Christianity's message that we are flawed creatures living in a sinful world always felt like a lie. I never needed a God or a savior because although bad things happen in the world and people do bad things the world isn't "broken" and there is nothing essentially wrong with us.

Even as a Christian believing in God, I also felt some of those same disconnects.  And some of those disconnects are what started me doubting:

Only God can fix the world?  Well clearly he's not fixing it, and from what I can tell, never did.  Could it be that he is not there, or worse... irrelevant?

Emotional resonance with the crucifixion?  Not for me.  First, the story was told to me by a teacher filled with joy.  To a little kid, not a great environment for emotional resonance.  Instead it was just confusing.  Why confusing?... Because even as I matured into an adolescent, and eventually an adult, the story of the crucifixion never made logical sense.

These are core underpinnings of Christianity that don't hold up to scrutiny.  But there are many more flawed assumptions.  To me, it makes no difference whether you were a believer at one time or not.  If you examine the core underpinnings, and they are flawed, as a logical person, you discard and move on, and if you never were a believer, you just continue without it.  In either case you end up in the same place.

Now for those Christians who find emotional resonance with these issues, I don't know where it comes from.  I assume the resonance is real for them, but it means nothing to me.

For what it's worth, when the Romans crucified Jesus, they did so on criminal charges.  Actually, rather weak evidence, but such was the nature of Roman justice.  As far as I know, no Roman official crucified Jesus "for our sins."  That conclusion seems to added to story later.  During the actual event, assuming it really happened at all, Jesus was just some schlub that found himself in Rome's horrible system of justice, probably just one of many unfortunates who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time being accused of something or other.  But those other guys were never credited with dying for our sins.  Anyone of them could have been used as a sacrifice.  Apparently, God thought their deaths were of a more trivial nature.

[Baruch]

Substitutionary atonement is more ancient than Judaism, Greek or Roman paganism.  It goes back to the beginning of civilization.  So unless you can relate to not just Classic civilization, but pre-Classic civilization, sacrifice won't make any sense to you.  It is essentially a superstitious action, by desperate people, that primarily benefit the priests (though not in Jesus case, because they aren't cannibals).  The Jewish priests of that time benefited indirectly, by helping the Romans get rid of potential troublemakers.

In some early practice in Mesopotamia ... they not only exiled scape goats into the desert, they also scape goated female prostitutes.

A Greek example is the story of ritual pollution of Thebes, because of what King Oedipus had done.  His blinding and exile were substitutionary atonement for the whole community, a king sacrifice.  Indo-European, because the matriarchal Irish also sacrificed kings when necessary.  There is a lot of Greek culture in the NT ... that is why Jesus had to be a "king".  Also a substitute for the corrupt High Priest, who made atonement for all Israel at Yom Kippur.  Thus the metaphorical connection to the legendary Melkizedek aka Righteous King, who blessed Abraham at the same location.

So without the priesthood and the superstition ... what are we left with?  Suppose that there was a biological weapon release, bigger than Ebola ... there would be a lot of desperate people, with no means to protect themselves.  The average person can't go and become a biological weapon inspector overnight, to protect themselves and their family.  I assure you, we would find scape goats ... we aren't too different from 4000 years ago.  If someone volunteered to be that scape goat, they would be a hero.

[GSOgymrat]

Substitutionary atonement is more ancient than Judaism, Greek or Roman paganism.  It goes back to the beginning of civilization.  So unless you can relate to not just Classic civilization, but pre-Classic civilization, sacrifice won't make any sense to you.  It is essentially a superstitious action, by desperate people, that primarily benefit the priests (though not in Jesus case, because they aren't cannibals).  The Jewish priests of that time benefited indirectly, by helping the Romans get rid of potential troublemakers.

In some early practice in Mesopotamia ... they not only exiled scape goats into the desert, they also scape goated female prostitutes.

A Greek example is the story of ritual pollution of Thebes, because of what King Oedipus had done.  His blinding and exile were substitutionary atonement for the whole community, a king sacrifice.  Indo-European, because the matriarchal Irish also sacrificed kings when necessary.  There is a lot of Greek culture in the NT ... that is why Jesus had to be a "king".  Also a substitute for the corrupt High Priest, who made atonement for all Israel at Yom Kippur.  Thus the metaphorical connection to the legendary Melkizedek aka Righteous King, who blessed Abraham at the same location.

So without the priesthood and the superstition ... what are we left with?  Suppose that there was a biological weapon release, bigger than Ebola ... there would be a lot of desperate people, with no means to protect themselves.  The average person can't go and become a biological weapon inspector overnight, to protect themselves and their family.  I assure you, we would find scape goats ... we aren't too different from 4000 years ago.  If someone volunteered to be that scape goat, they would be a hero.

Aren't a sacrificial lamb and a scapegoat two different things?

A Christian friend once told me that because Jesus sacrificed himself there was no longer a need for animal sacrifices. I asked why there needed to be animal sacrifices and he said because God commands it. I didn't bother asking why God wanted a dead goat. I assume it goes back to currying favor or giving up something of value to demonstrate devotion.

[SGOS]

It could be possible that Barabbas could have been the actual sacrifice, or some luckless victim of Roman justice 50 years later.  Anyone could have been pointed to as the fulfillment of prophecy and we could have ended up worshiping some other unfortunate casualty.

[Baruch]

Aren't a sacrificial lamb and a scapegoat two different things?

A Christian friend once told me that because Jesus sacrificed himself there was no longer a need for animal sacrifices. I asked why there needed to be animal sacrifices and he said because God commands it. I didn't bother asking why God wanted a dead goat. I assume it goes back to currying favor or giving up something of value to demonstrate devotion.

Christian theology throws jello against walls, and sees what sticks.  The Lamb of G-d only worked for the soon eliminated faction of Jewish vegetarians.  Though vegetarianism is the only way to be kosher for sure.