Here is your chance: Prove Ivan Panin wrong

[stromboli]

http://users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/panin_mark.html

Ivan Panin and the Gospel of Mark

Perhaps the most impressive work of Ivan Panin concerned the passage Mark 16:9-20 in the Greek New Testament.  Modern scholars are almost unanimous in judging this passage an interpolation, but Panin, in his pamphet "The Last Twelve Verses of Mark" provides a dazzling array of numerical patterns.  In his view, these patterns appeared by design, not by accident, and of course the designer must have been God.  Therefore, the passage is authentic.
As we shall see, this example provides an important lesson about Panin's work.

Accident or Design?

As we have adequately demonstrated elsewhere, any piece of text contains a large number of numerical "patterns" by chance.  All that is needed is the skill to present them in a way that makes them appear extraordinary.  However, some of the patterns presented by Panin were indeed the result of deliberate design: Panin designed them!
Textual analysis or Cheating?

Everyone familiar with the history of the Greek New Testament knows that there are very many editions.  The primary reason for this is that they follow the decisions of editors who have different degrees of access to early manuscripts and different opinions on how discrepancies between them should be resolved.  The result of this subjectivity is that, apart from intentional reprintings, all the editions differ from one another.  Sometimes the differences are small, and sometimes they are large, but almost any difference is harmful to Panin's results.  That is because many of Panin's patterns rely on the exact words, or even the exact letters, that appear in the text.

Panin used the edition of Westcott and Hort as the "basis" for his work, but very often made use of the many alternative readings that those authors suggested.  He was prepared to pick and choose almost arbitrarily from the variations, meaning that in fact he was really working with a huge number of texts, few of them corresponding to any real manuscript. After this deliberate tweaking of the text to make his patterns work, he then calculated "probabilities" without taking that tweaking into account.  Panin even published his own Greek text, carefully tweaked to provide the patterns that he most liked.

Panin believed that he was reconstructing the original text, but his logic was circular.  By deliberately designing the patterns himself by tweaking the text, he eliminated his own argument that the patterns proved an original design.  The very most he could logically conclude was that his attempt to produce patterns had been successful.

Incidentally, the edition of Westcott and Hort is today regarded as poor scholarship.

Ken Smith's investigation

Ken Smith of Brisbane did an investigation which proves our point forcefully.  Panin's report on the last twelve verse of Mark begins with the observation that there are 175 = 25x7 words in the Greek text.  If that much is wrong, it is obvious that many other things will be wrong also.  So Ken collected a large number of editions and counted the words in that passage.  Here are his findings.
 

Edition   
Words
Elzevir's edition of Textus Receptus (1624)
166
Wilson (1864)
165
Alford (1874)
166
Westcott and Hort (1881)
172
Weymouth (1886)
167
Nestle (1898)
168
Souter (1902) for Accepted Version
166
ditto, for Revised Version
168
Nestle (1904)
168
Souter (1910)
168
Huck (1936)
167
Souter (1947)
169
British and Foreign Bible Society (1958)
168
Tasker (1961)
165
Nestle/Aland (1975)
170
Huck/Greeven (1981)
168
More bibliographic details for these editions are available on request.

We see that none of these editions has even the right number of words for Panin's claims.  What chance do they have for Panin's claims concerning letter counts or numerical values?  We conclude that Panin himself designed the patterns he found.


Another example

A poorly known article of Panin actually describes the process of cooking the data to fit the desired outcome.  The following scans were once available at ftp://tanana.iarc.uaf.edu/panin but that site appears dead:
page1  page2  page3  page4  page5  page6.

[doorknob]

Thank you stromboli I know we can count on you to debunk anything.

I'm not really sure how the significance of this pattern is even if it were some how correct. That doesn't prove god or the christian god just that there is a lovely pattern.

You win Christians! :P

[stromboli]

Thank you stromboli I know we can count on you to debunk anything.

I'm not really sure how the significance of this pattern is even if it were some how correct. That doesn't prove god or the christian god just that there is a lovely pattern.

You win Christians! :P

Ivan Panin was a Biblical numerologist. Numerology by itself is not considered legitimate belief, unless applied to holy scripture. You can take any of the repeated bible numbers- 7, 40 year period, Jubilee year every 50 years- 7 year tribulation/7 year period of peace after gog and Magog, etc. Apparently the Jewish scribes like some numbers.

Quite a number of people have applied similar claims both before and after Panin, so its nothing new. Like Sagan said- "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Never seen any spectacular biblical claims that held water.

[PopeyesPappy]

Totally off topic here, but how far are you from Hill AFB Stromboli?

[PopeyesPappy]

I may be out that way for a few days in a couple of weeks. If so I may try to look you up.

[Baruch]

Most people who post here are Pythagoreans.  So yes, they believe in numerology, just not the kind Panin is selling.

[PopeyesPappy]

Thought I remembered you saying that before, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway. At this point I'm not even sure I'm going. The Air Farce is scheduling some walk throughs for a turbine test stand RFP we are thinking about bidding on.

[PopeyesPappy]

At this point I can't tell what platform it is for only that it is for the ATS not the engine. We'd be ripping out 3 old test stands along with the existing 300 psi air system, and putting in two new stands along with new 125 and 300 psi air systems.

We don't actually have the engineering cajones in house for this type of work, but our sub does. We have worked a similar project with them in the past for KC-130 APU's. The sub designs. We build and install. It's a good working arrangement. We might be looking for someone local to keep an eye on things if you're interested. Wouldn't be permanent and probably wouldn't be full time. If not I wouldn't mind talking to some old buddies if you have any that are available.

[PopeyesPappy]

No problem. Thought I'd throw it out there. FYI I've got 3 retired civil servant tech editor types sitting out at Tinker now reconciling B2 tech orders with manufacturer drawings on a subcontract with Northrup. It's been the easiest contract I've ever managed. They send me a report once a month to look at and file. The only thing they've asked for in the last 18 months was some office supplies.

[DeltaEpsilon]

This is an atheist forum, so what better place to write this thread? :P

Russian mathematician Ivan Panin discovered the heptadic structure a century ago. Skeptics claim that it's only coincidence and that it can easily be written by anyone. So I am here to request that a person be the contender and actually produce such a genealogy and prove once and for all that Ivan Panin was an idiot.

What you have do to, is write an entirely fictional genealogy and fulfill all of the requirements below. You are free to use any computer programs that you believe would be able to help you in your mission. I wish you luck and I am positive that you will not be able to do it, exactly because it's divinely inspired. Who is going to take on the challenge?

(1) The total number of letters has to be divisible by seven
(2) The total number of words has to be divisible by seven
(3) The total number of names has to be divisible by seven
(4) The total number of vowels has to be divisible by seven
(5) The total number of nouns has to be divisible by seven
(6) The total number of generations has to be divisible by seven
(7) The total number of male names has to be divisible by seven
(8) The total number of words that begin with a vowel must be divisible by seven
(9) The total number of words that begin with a noun must be divisible by seven
(10) The total number of words that appear in one form must be divisible by seven
(11) The total number of words that appear only once must be divisible by seven
(12) The total number of words that begin with a consonant must be divisible by seven

First of all, Ivan Panin was not a bonafide mathematician.

Second of all, coincidences are bound to happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E2%80%93Kennedy_coincidences_urban_legend. I'm afraid this coincidence is not divinely inspired, because the divine is illogical. Given the massive amount of literature that humanity as produced, it would make sense for something like this to happen. I also bet I could write such a book, but it would be a monumental waste of my time.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Panin believed that he was reconstructing the original text, but his logic was circular.  By deliberately designing the patterns himself by tweaking the text, he eliminated his own argument that the patterns proved an original design.  The very most he could logically conclude was that his attempt to produce patterns had been successful.

Ironically, Panin proves himself wrong by doing exactly as GTR-1 challenged us to do: construct a geneology with the features Panin points out and as GTR-1 lists, by "reconstructing" the "original" New Testament text using his feature list as a guide, and furthermore, did it without a computer or even made up out of whole cloth. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[SGOS]

Ironically, Panin proves himself wrong by doing exactly as GTR-1 challenged us to do: construct a geneology with the features Panin points out and as GTR-1 lists, by "reconstructing" the "original" New Testament text using his feature list as a guide, and furthermore, did it without a computer or even made up out of whole cloth. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

I couldn't get far enough to understand GTR's point, let alone figure out what he was directing us to do.

[Jason78]

What's so special about the number seven anyway?

[Mike Cl]

What's so special about the number seven anyway?

Well, ya big dummy---it's in the bible!!!

[GSOgymrat]

This is Jesus-on-a-tortilla level ridiculousness.