Born Again: Has Penn Jillette Seen the Light?

Started by Mr.Obvious, August 28, 2016, 03:56:41 AM

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widdershins

Quote from: chill98 on August 31, 2016, 06:45:13 PM
Ya know what, the subject was Jillette's video;
I'm not even reading any further than that.  I was quoting YOU.  The subject of a REPLY is the text I am REPLYING to.  The "subject" was what I was quoting from YOU.

Look, it's simple.  You said something stupid.  FSM knows I have.  It's indefensible because it was wrong.  No sense throwing a fit about it.  You either want to have an intelligent discussion or you don't.  If you do then when you find out you were wrong you say, "Sorry, you got me there.  I was wrong about that" and you move on.  Otherwise you throw a fit and try redirecting the conversation over and over again, in which case I'm not really interested in a conversation with you anyway.  Your choice.
This sentence is a lie...

chill98

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 31, 2016, 11:38:28 PM
I'm pretty sure that the reason the kid was hit by a bomb was because an asshole set off a bomb. What you're doing is called victim blaming. While I would agree that making decisions based on emotions alone can be unwise, it does appear that you are reaching a bit trying to prove your point.
Yeah, it is hard to imagine a parent would allow their children to be used in such a manner but they do. One example is putting their kids in front of our convoys in an attempt to get them to stop so they could set off IEDs. Others here:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-09-12-child-soldiers-afghanistan_N.htm

Syria (from 2014):

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/use-child-soldiers-syria-condemned-20146237583974800.html

Don't trust aljazeera?  How about PBS (again 2014 and things have only gotten worse since):

quote  One of the characters profiled in the film is Farah, an eight year old who says her favorite activity is helping her father, a rebel commander, build bombs. It’s dangerous work, and Farah knows it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/witnessing-syrias-war-through-the-eyes-of-its-children/

Rebel bombs (again 2014):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/aleppos-most-wanted-man-rebel-leader-tunnel-bombs

Victim blaming?  Or healthy skepticism regarding just how low some people can be enticed to go for 'the cause'.  Watch the wapo video linked above of the scene from the 'bombing'.  I am highly suspicious of the propaganda from ALL Sides. 

Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/03/u-s-military-intelligence-involved-in-chemical-attack-in-syria/

Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin

Hmmm (2015):
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/

Open Letter (2015)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/coleen-rowley/calling-again-for-proof-r_b_8880064.html

Approx 6 months later the attempted coup in Turkey. 

Other stuff:

wiki quote :In July 2015, a raid by US special forces on a compound housing the Islamic State's "chief financial officer", Abu Sayyaf, produced evidence that Turkish officials directly dealt with ranking IS members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan#Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

I don't know why that kids parents chose to stay in Allepo.  While one has to regard any information about behind the lines activities as unreliable, it is estimated that the population of Eastern Allepo was 1million before the war and 40K now.  It is very possible that the kids parents support the rebels and chose to stay to fight Assad.  That does make them responsible for the kid being in harms way.

One can imagine that situation is impossible, but that is based on what we think WE would do. 

widdershins

Quote from: chill98 on September 01, 2016, 10:20:46 AM
Yeah, it is hard to imagine a parent would allow their children to be used in such a manner but they do. One example is putting their kids in front of our convoys in an attempt to get them to stop so they could set off IEDs. Others here:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-09-12-child-soldiers-afghanistan_N.htm

Syria (from 2014):

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/use-child-soldiers-syria-condemned-20146237583974800.html

Don't trust aljazeera?  How about PBS (again 2014 and things have only gotten worse since):

quote  One of the characters profiled in the film is Farah, an eight year old who says her favorite activity is helping her father, a rebel commander, build bombs. It’s dangerous work, and Farah knows it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/witnessing-syrias-war-through-the-eyes-of-its-children/

Rebel bombs (again 2014):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/aleppos-most-wanted-man-rebel-leader-tunnel-bombs

Victim blaming?  Or healthy skepticism regarding just how low some people can be enticed to go for 'the cause'.  Watch the wapo video linked above of the scene from the 'bombing'.  I am highly suspicious of the propaganda from ALL Sides. 

Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/03/u-s-military-intelligence-involved-in-chemical-attack-in-syria/

Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin

Hmmm (2015):
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/

Open Letter (2015)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/coleen-rowley/calling-again-for-proof-r_b_8880064.html

Approx 6 months later the attempted coup in Turkey. 

Other stuff:

wiki quote :In July 2015, a raid by US special forces on a compound housing the Islamic State's "chief financial officer", Abu Sayyaf, produced evidence that Turkish officials directly dealt with ranking IS members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan#Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

I don't know why that kids parents chose to stay in Allepo.  While one has to regard any information about behind the lines activities as unreliable, it is estimated that the population of Eastern Allepo was 1million before the war and 40K now.  It is very possible that the kids parents support the rebels and chose to stay to fight Assad.  That does make them responsible for the kid being in harms way.

One can imagine that situation is impossible, but that is based on what we think WE would do. 
One can "imagine" a lot of things.  I never said that shit didn't happen.  I know very well that it does.  But there is no evidence that it did happen in this case.  And all of that is irrelevant anyway because this was one example, not the only person suffering.  It was a hastily posted example of the suffering of these people never intended to be any sort of specific focus.  Even then you are STILL claiming that this kid's parents "chose" to stay.  I have asked you to prove that.  Instead, you claimed that wasn't the subject and then AGAIN made it the subject.  You made a claim.  More than once.  PROVE IT!

One can actually KNOW with a good degree of certainly that there ARE cases where the parents did not "choose" to remain, where people are suffering through absolutely no fault of their own or their parents.  One can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that giving refuge to refugees WILL keep some people from harm.  And one can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that there ARE good people, even if they are good people with some bad ideas, in these war torn places.
This sentence is a lie...

Baruch

This isn't a real war, it is playacting.  But in a real war, you carpet bomb the civilians.  Ask the Krauts and the Japs about it.  Civilians in that case, are targets ... enemy civilians are the families of the soldiers/sailors fighting us.  Kill them all, let none escape.  Long live Genghis Khan!

That said ... we are just fooling around ... and that is less conscionable than straightforward slaughter.  This is permanent war, for the economy ... and weapons testing.  Just like Vietnam.  We can't win, because that ends it.  We can't slaughter them, because there won't be enough to keep the game going.  You have to think pure evil, to think like a government, or a corporation.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

widdershins

That view is too cynical even for me, and that's saying a lot.  You are correct at least to an extent, though.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not names of military bases, after all.
This sentence is a lie...

chill98

Quote from: widdershins on September 01, 2016, 12:52:20 PM
But there is no evidence that it did happen in this case.
The kid is in custody of his parents. 
His parents made the choice to stay in Allepo. There is plenty of evidence to support the FACT the parents had options and made choices that impacted the health and well-being of their children.  Not my fault you did not seek out further information before reaching a conclusion.

Quote from: Reuters may 2016Mohammad Muaz Abu Saleh, a senior councillor in the rebel Aleppo governate council, said residents were nonetheless not abandoning opposition-held areas.

"Those who wanted to leave Aleppo have fled," he said. Those who have stayed behind "have decided to stay under all circumstances of shelling and siege. Aleppo will remain populated with its people not leaving."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-kerry-idUSKCN0XT0JJ

July 2016

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36932694

Quote from: aljazeera July 2016The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights also reported on Saturday that "a number" of civilians had crossed into government territory.

Freelance journalist Alaa Ebrahim told Al Jazeera he had personally witnessed hundreds of people using the corridors leaving rebel-controlled areas.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/syria-war-families-leave-rebel-held-parts-aleppo-160730124401589.html
Quote from: widdershins on September 01, 2016, 12:52:20 PMAnd all of that is irrelevant anyway because this was one example, not the only person suffering.  It was a hastily posted example of the suffering of these people never intended to be any sort of specific focus.
Hasty is one way to put it.  And it is still an appeal to emotion and it is a GREAT picture for that. 

Quote from: widdershins on September 01, 2016, 12:52:20 PMOne can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that giving refuge to refugees WILL keep some people from harm.  And one can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that there ARE good people, even if they are good people with some bad ideas, in these war torn places.
Are you ADD?  I have no issue with sending food/medical to refugee camps and have said that multiple times.  Furthermore, it is a TEMPORARY solution to the immediate issue, but does nothing to address the real problem in those middle eastern countries and that is ISLAM. 

Finally, the kid in the pic was not in a refugee camp!  His parents made the decision to not even go to the other side of town (where the government is in control, where civil services continue, where school is in session, where clean hospitals exist).   


Shiranu

#36
Still not understanding how "I am afraid of them!" is not an emotional argument, but saying, "We shouldn't be afraid and be decent human beings who care for one another." is...


Or what's wrong with being emotional, one of the things that is quintessential to the human experience...


When "logic" and "rationality" comes before taking care of your fellow human, frankly it has lost any use imo.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

widdershins

Quote from: chill98 on September 02, 2016, 02:02:25 PM
The kid is in custody of his parents. 
His parents made the choice to stay in Allepo. There is plenty of evidence to support the FACT the parents had options and made choices...
I was unaware of that FACT.  What is this evidence?  Please present it.
This sentence is a lie...

widdershins

Quote from: Shiranu on September 02, 2016, 02:13:28 PM
Still not understanding how "I am afraid of them!" is not an emotional argument, but saying, "We shouldn't be afraid and be decent human beings who care for one another." is...


Or what's wrong with being emotional, one of the things that is quintessential to the human experience...


When "logic" and "rationality" comes before taking care of your fellow human, frankly it has lost any use imo.
Thank you!
This sentence is a lie...

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on August 30, 2016, 06:47:46 PM
The US has taken in 10,000 ... our quota.  So there.  Hope it works out well.  Probably just providing cannon fodder for the CIA to recruit for return trips.  The CIA has been doing this since 1946.
And not just the CIA--the service intel branches were/are doing this a bit, too.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: widdershins on September 02, 2016, 10:43:49 AM
That view is too cynical even for me, and that's saying a lot.  You are correct at least to an extent, though.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not names of military bases, after all.

We knew we were doing war crimes in German cities and Japanese cities, even before the Bomb.  But I am good with it.  The Allies aren't the good guys, just the winners.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cocoa Beware

#41
My advice to this man is to not take Trump seriously. Trump spews hazardous delusional rhetoric, but at least... he will be an afterthought in a few months.

What troubles me is the kind of treatment he would receive at the hands of his own community. They might murder him? In America? I understand most Muslims are not terrorists, but evidently there are serious problems otherwise. I can't believe something so disgustingly draconian has made its way across the ocean.


chill98

Follow-up on Alepo child photograph and its source.  Have not had time to research.  Is it True?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jifS0fi9WB8&feature=youtu.be

Baruch

Supposedly some people have been beheaded by ISIS, including women and children.  Beheadings and burning alive occurs in Mexico also ... with government backing.  As per Dick Cheney ... so?  Could BBC act as a propaganda element of the British government?  Surely you already know the answer.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: chill98 on October 10, 2016, 08:53:45 PM
Follow-up on Alepo child photograph and its source.  Have not had time to research.  Is it True?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jifS0fi9WB8&feature=youtu.be

Some people, theist and non-theist, commit acts of cruelty and barbarism.

I THINK more is initiated by insane theists in the 21st century, but there are insane non-theist bastards in the world, too..
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!