Born Again: Has Penn Jillette Seen the Light?

[chill98]

He was in that position because the United States and Britain decided that Syria needed an uprising and that Assad needed to go. Action to harm the Syrian government was talked about by the US and Britain since at least way back in 2007-2009. You guys are responsible for this whole mess and have provided more weapons to terrorists than anyone else has, so as far as I'm concerned, your country has a moral obligation to take in these refugees and provide them with safety.

Well you certainly present a convinced opinion without much substance.

Aljazeera-not exactly pro-usa:

  Quote aljazeera:
In 2011, what became known as the "Arab Spring" revolts toppled Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

That March, peaceful protests erupted in Syria as well, after 15 boys were detained and tortured for having written graffiti in support of the Arab Spring. One of the boys, 13-year-old Hamza al-Khateeb , was killed after having been brutally tortured.

The Syrian government, led by President Bashar al-Assad, responded to the protests by killing hundreds of demonstrators and imprisoning many more. In July 2011, defectors from the military announced the formation of the Free Syrian Army, a rebel group aiming to overthrow the government, and Syria began to slide into civil war.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/syria-civil-war-explained-160505084119966.html

Quote wiki:
Those who have conducted airstrikes in Syria include the United States, Australia, Bahrain, Canada, France, Jordan, The Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war#Western_coalition

If I remember correctly, you are in canada.  Feel free to bring these 'refugees' into canada. 

[Shiranu]

Oh look, the "emotions are terrible, how dare you be a human being" arguments started again.

[FaithIsFilth]

If I remember correctly, you are in canada.  Feel free to bring these 'refugees' into canada. 

I'm glad to have them here but obviously we can't take them all in.

Even if you believe that the uprising was entirely natural with no outside influence, that still doesn't take away from my argument that you have a moral obligation here. If it wasn't for America and it's allies, Assad would have crushed the terrorist uprising. The US has supplied the terrorists with more weapons than anyone else, all because Assad refused to bow down and let them have their pipeline. If it wasn't for your invasion of Iraq based on the lie of WMDs, you wouldn't see the ISIS that currently exists. If it wasn't for the US leaving all those weapons and vehicles behind in Iraq to be taken by ISIS, and arming other terrorist groups fighting against Assad, ISIS would not exist in the same way that it does today, so it's ridiculous for you to try to make the argument that the people of Syria are the one's to blame when their children get injured in this war or die in this war, and that the US is not to blame whatsoever.

[Blackleaf]

Oh look, the "emotions are terrible, how dare you be a human being" arguments started again.

You are aware of what the strawman fallacy is, aren't you?

[widdershins]

It is absolutely an appeal to emotion on all fronts, starting with Penn Jillette.  The kid was getting help, hence the picture of him sitting in an ambulance.  His parents are responsible for his condition not me, not the USA.  I don't know why they decided to stay in a war zone.  Assad is not stopping them from moving to another city.The strawman is your creation.  The border and immigration is a separate issue from once you are on the ground in the usa as a legal immigrant/refugee and innocent until proven guilty.  Two separate issues. 

The picture was of a single kid in a place where many suffer.  If it weren't for attitudes like yours he may not have even been there in the first place.

And then there's another straw man.  I never said you were responsible for his condition.  I only illustrated that the people in the area need help.  His parents may or may not have "decided" to stay in a war zone.  Not everyone has the option of just picking up and moving.  ISIS is known for blockading towns they occupy.  You don't want your meat shields walking out on you.  There is no indication whether or not they actually had a "choice", but you're pretending that it's all on the parents, cut and dried.

I mentioned "innocent until proven guilty", not as a direct assertion of their "rights", as should have been obvious, but as an indication of what we, as Americans, hold to be important.  I was more saying that if we hold this concept to be so important why do we view all Muslims as being terrorists than I was asserting that non-Americans in any way enjoyed American rights which, again, should have been obvious.

Here we have a great example of handwaving and strawmanning extraordinaire.  We don't need Islamic values in the usa and islamic values run contrary to the foundation values of this country, you know, that pesky document, the Bill of rights.  That pesky little document actually REJECTS basic islamic values wholeheartedly.  Islamic values are NOT our values.

Oh yes, the Bill of Rights.  I've heard of it.  If I recall, and you'll have to forgive me as this is from memory, it starts with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or restricting the free exercise thereof..."  Do you mean THAT Bill of Rights?  The one that BEGINS by saying we shouldn't judge people by their religious beliefs?  THAT is the Bill of Rights you are using to defend your judgement of people by their religious beliefs?

Once again, as you seem to miss this, I am not saying the Bill of Rights applies to foreign peoples.  I am only saying that if you hold the Bill or Rights so dear, what that particular document holds most dear is that we NOT establish any religious beliefs as being more or less important than any other.  THAT document, the one you seem to be claiming supports your claim, actually says that NO religious beliefs "run contrary to the foundation values of this country".

Yes, it thrives on segregation AND subjugation which is another damn good reason to shut them out of this country. Again, more examples of why muslim application for immigration should be heavily scrutinized. Conditional even.  And Rarely granted.

Now THAT runs contrary to the intent of the Bill of Rights, judging by the "values" expressed in the very first amendment.  Why is it bigots and gun nuts always wave around the Constitution but don't seem to know what the fuck it says? 

You claim its ignorance and to that I say phfft.  You dish out politically correct mumbo jumbo after posting a picture of typical casualties of war; a war against ISIS in syria.  That kid would not have been hurt if not for islamic practices.  End of story.

If it were "end of story" there wouldn't be a fucking conversation now would there?  I am not being "politically correct".  I fucking hate Islam and I think the made-up word "Islamophobia" is total bullshit.  But I do give a fuck about people, even if they're not like me.

Sez u.  I mean seriously, there isn't a more fucked up religion going on that I can think of.

If you think I disagree with that then you REALLY have no clue what the fuck I'm about.  There truly IS NO more fucked up religion than Islam...in it's extreme form.  But like Christianity, there are many versions, many beliefs.  Westernized Muslims call Islam "the religion of peace" and they mean it.  Westernized Muslims won't kill you for drowning Mohamed fucking a goat.  You want to kill radical Islam?  So do I!  Are you going to do it by bombing all the little cockroaches in the Middle East?  There used to be two tall towers in New York that told us how well THAT worked out for us.  So how do you do it?  You Westernize them.  You educate them.  You get them in a controlled environment where they have no power and you civilize the beasts.

If you think I don't want every last radical piece of shit dead on the battlefield, think again.  If you think that I'm okay with Muslims coming over hear and taking us backward a hundred years in social development and women's rights, think again.  But not all Muslims are like that, and those who are can change.  It won't be easy, it won't be quick, but the only way to annihilate radical Islam is with education.  There is literally no other way.  You can't take education to them.  They'll kill children for being educated there.  You have to bring them to the education.  You have to get the innocents off the battlefield so that carpet bombing becomes a realistic solution which will kill only "bad guys".

Lots of them are shit, but they ain't out beheading people, raping captives or burning POWs to death. And I am VERY ok with shutting the border down to them UNTIL IT REFORMS. 

Then you will shut the borders forever.

For now.  Tomorrow they may flip and turn into that blood thirsty savage for allah like this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzammil_Hassan
or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting
Ya can take the muslim out of syria but ya can't take islam out of the muslim....

So you can show me a few examples of things that make you shit your pants and that makes all Muslims a similar risk?  You have to know that's bullshit.  It's anecdotal evidence vs statistical reality.

He was speaking about his muslim community in the usa killing him for being an atheist. Islam is contrary to the values of the USA.  You can try to mealy mouth your way around that invoking pictures of dirty kids and dead puppies but it does not change the basics of the issue.  Islam is not a religion of peace.

You keep saying that Islam is contrary to US values as if saying it repeatedly is going to somehow magically make it true.  It is not true and it will never be true no matter how much you repeat it.  There is no singular set of "US values".  Each individual has different values.  Just as there is no singular form of "Islam".  There are many Islamic belief systems, some of which very much do not run contrary to even the "values" you believe the US to have as a whole.  Ever heard of Aasif Mandvi?  Very funny guy.  Very likable.  Very liberal.  His religion is Islam.  Ever heard of Malala Yousafzai?  She's unlikely to be running around killing girls for going to school, I think.  She fights for women's rights to be educated.  In what way is that "contrary to the values of the USA"?

I can give you singular examples of innocuous, even heroic Muslims just as you can give me examples of nut jobs killing people in the name of Islam.  That's why anecdotal evidence is irrelevant.  For every evil Muslim you show me I can show you one who fights for women's rights, who fights against violence, who speaks out against radical Islam.  And I can do that because Islam is not a singular, united belief system capable only of making terrorists as you are painting it to be.  Your belief that "Islam" is a single thing which is "contrary to the values of the USA", which is apparently also a single thing, very much is ignorant.  It is uninformed and unintelligent.  Yes, there are dangerous Muslims.  Yes, there are a lot more of them in the Middle East than there are currently here in the US.  But yes, there are innocent people there who, yes, are VERY MUCH in a situation not within their ability to get out of.  You see someone wearing a towel on his head and think "terrorist".  I see a human being who is different than me.  The big difference between you and me is not "political correctness" on my part, as you claim.  It's that when I see him or her or them, I care.  You don't.  I see human beings.  You see vile people whose beliefs are too different from your own to give a shit about.  I'm not being politically correct.  I just care about human beings who are different than me a shitload more than you do.

[Baruch]

The US has taken in 10,000 ... our quota.  So there.  Hope it works out well.  Probably just providing cannon fodder for the CIA to recruit for return trips.  The CIA has been doing this since 1946.

[chill98]

The picture was of a single kid in a place where many suffer.  If it weren't for attitudes like yours he may not have even been there in the first place.

The reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made.  You do not know (nor do I) whether his parents support Assad or ISIS or other.  Don't know why they chose to stay in a war zone and put their own kid in harms way but it has ZERO to do with my attitude.

And then there's another straw man.  I never said you were responsible for his condition.  I only illustrated that the people in the area need help.  His parents may or may not have "decided" to stay in a war zone.    ISIS is known for blockading towns they occupy.  You don't want your meat shields walking out on you.  There is no indication whether or not they actually had a "choice", but you're pretending that it's all on the parents, cut and dried.

Here we go again with another mealy mouthed response. You absolutely did say "because of people like YOU".  So yes you did say I am responsible.

Yes, ISIS is alleged (believable) to not only blockade towns, but to use human shields.  Not my fault, not Assads fault, not anyone but ISIS modus operand.  And my attitude did not make that happen to anyone in syria, including that kid in the photo. Not my fault, not my responsibility, not my concern.  I really don't care about that kid or his family. 

I mentioned "innocent until proven guilty", not as a direct assertion of their "rights", as should have been obvious, but as an indication of what we, as Americans, hold to be important.  I was more saying that if we hold this concept to be so important why do we view all Muslims as being terrorists than I was asserting that non-Americans in any way enjoyed American rights which, again, should have been obvious.

THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS on USA soil.  UNTIL that happens they do not have innocent until proven guilty.  I do want to make sure those who are allowed to immigrate meet SOME standard of inherent US values.  And I disagree with the crap Jillette posted on his video. 

Fourth, the Secretary of Treasury [State] and the Attorney General will invalidate all visas issued to Iranian citizens for future entry into the United States, effective today. We will not reissue visas, nor will we issue new visas, except for compelling and proven humanitarian reasons or where the national interest of our own country requires. This directive will be interpreted very strictly.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233

So yes it seems to be in a presidents authority to deny immigration.  And the Iranian revolution was about religion. 

Oh yes, the Bill of Rights.  I've heard of it.  If I recall, and you'll have to forgive me as this is from memory, it starts with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or restricting the free exercise thereof..."  Do you mean THAT Bill of Rights?  The one that BEGINS by saying we shouldn't judge people by their religious beliefs?  THAT is the Bill of Rights you are using to defend your judgement of people by their religious beliefs?

This isnt about making a law regarding the practice of religion and once again, it does not apply in regards to Syrian nationals being allowed into the usa.  The point was clearly ISLAM does not hold those values. 

Jehova witness do not hold MY values. So I don't invite them into my house.  Muslims do not hold the values of the USA and we should not invite them in without careful scrutiny. 

Once again, as you seem to miss this, I am not saying the Bill of Rights applies to foreign peoples.  I am only saying that if you hold the Bill or Rights so dear, what that particular document holds most dear is that we NOT establish any religious beliefs as being more or less important than any other.  THAT document, the one you seem to be claiming supports your claim, actually says that NO religious beliefs "run contrary to the foundation values of this country".

NOPE.  You are twisting the statements made.  Islam does not hold those values.  Islam does not believe in separation of state/religion. Islam does not believe in freedom of speech. etc.

Then you will shut the borders forever.

I am fine with that.  350+million people here are enough.

You keep saying that Islam is contrary to US values as if saying it repeatedly is going to somehow magically make it true. 

I dont have to keep repeating it. Your own words imply you know this to be true.  Again and again you point to 'westernized muslims' to support your position; because they have to be conditioned (reformed)?  Because their values are not ours? 

Yeah, you have to point to westernized muslims to find these things because you can't find them in these "different than me" people you care about? 

I'm not being politically correct.  I just care about human beings who are different than me a shitload more than you do.

Really? Just how much do you care about people half a world away?  Only enough to spend a hour typing up a response to my indifference?   Pfft.  While you probably believe these things about yourself; that you actually give a shit I mean; I don't believe you have any more invested in this 'caring' than I do.

Just posing for the cameras is all...

[chill98]

Even if you believe that the uprising was entirely natural with no outside influence, that still doesn't take away from my argument that you have a moral obligation here.

I think I backed my position up with documentation.  Something you have not done. 

I agree we can ship food/medical aid to refugee camps as needed. That is the end of my chosen (not moral) response to the situation in syria.

[Shiranu]

The reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made.  You do not know (nor do I) whether his parents support Assad or ISIS or other.  Don't know why they chose to stay in a war zone and put their own kid in harms way but it has ZERO to do with my attitude.

"We should not accept refugees! They live there because they choose not to come to us!"

I don't know if you know this, but just "picking up and leaving" is not something done easily. Let's forget the economics of it; getting out of the country is more dangerous (in the short term) than sitting where you are at and hoping things blow over quickly. It's not like Syrians can just pack their thing in a suitcase and just stroll outside, whistling a fine diddly and casually walk across the country to Turkey or ride a luxury yacht into Eastern Europe. You have to cross battlefields, you have to go through ISIS controlled territory, you have to hope your leaky boat that is about 50 people over the capacity doesn't deposit you in the middle of the Mediterranean, you have to hope you find some way to eat, you have to hope the country will even let you in and you have to hope when you get there you will be even remotely accepted.

Let's cut the bullshit of acting like being a refugee is somehow peaches and butterflies and that anyone who didn't choose that option are obviously terrible people who deserve what they got.

Not my fault, not my responsibility, not my concern.

That's your prerogative, but when people call you out for being a shitty person you really cant act surprise since you are, well, kinda a shitty person.

THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS on USA soil.  UNTIL that happens they do not have innocent until proven guilty.  I do want to make sure those who are allowed to immigrate meet SOME standard of inherent US values.  And I disagree with the crap Jillette posted on his video. 

So we only care about our morality and values when it's people we care about; otherwise fuck our morality and values and go fuck yourself you dirty foreigner.

Can you really call them "values" when you only think they should apply to people you like? I think that is just a wee bit too arbitrary to deserve the term "value", more "conditional privileges for people I like".

Yeah, you have to point to westernized muslims to find these things because you can't find them in these "different than me" people you care about? 

What a great way to trivialize those who actually fight and die in the Middle East and Africa to live a moderate life... "I don't hear about them, so they don't exist!"

tl;dr the rest. Basically, "I hate Jillete for appealing to emotions, we should not help them because they are scary and I don't have any other emotions toward them."

*yawn*

[PickelledEggs]

@Shiranu

This is a small thing, but can you please use the quote button on the post you're quoting, instead of inserting the text from the post within the [/quote] code?

It makes things easier to figure out the source of what you are quoting from where and easier to follow.... both from a general discussion standpoint and a moderator standpoint.

Please. Thank you.

[widdershins]

The reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made.

Let's keep it simple this time.  Prove that.

[chill98]

Let's keep it simple this time.

Better yet, lets keep the topic about Jillette's bs political agenda wrapped in poor innocent muslims video.

[widdershins]

Better yet, lets keep the topic about Jillette's bs political agenda wrapped in poor innocent muslims video.

Oh, hey, let's change the subject when I point out you said something completely stupid and not based in fact or reality.

If you can't be bothered to defend what you post then you might as well not bother posting at all.  If you're going to be full of shit at least pretend to have evidence that you're not.

[chill98]

Oh, hey, let's change the subject when I point out you said something completely stupid and not based in fact or reality.

If you can't be bothered to defend what you post then you might as well not bother posting at all.  If you're going to be full of shit at least pretend to have evidence that you're not.

Ya know what, the subject was Jillette's video; which is a rag-tag unrelated theme he stitched together to present a political viewpoint on american politics.

You have a picture you present as fact and reality without having one fucking clue about why that kid was in that situation.  In the video at WaPo link, where your pic was taken from, pay attention at the 1:00 mark when you here a man saying "this way, this way"  English speaking to an Arabic speaking people??  1:05 you will need to be quick with pause as two military people come into the shot, one with a video cam.  Then a 3rd.  Last part of the video, listen to chants of Allah u akbar as it appears they brought out a body.  A fallen soldier?

Edit:  While I do have the software, I don't want to spend my time zooming in to see what all is on the belts of the military persons in the video.  As pointed out, ISIS is known for using human shields. 
/edit

Notice No Women were harmed in the making of this video... No screaming moms at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/08/17/the-stunned-bloodied-face-of-a-child-survivor-sums-up-the-horror-of-aleppo/?tid=pm_world_pop_b

I already defended my post.

The only shit I give about the Syrian conflict is that we stay the fuck out of it.  Assad is a prick but he is surrounded by a shitload of psychopaths for Allah. 

[Blackleaf]

The reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made.

I'm pretty sure that the reason the kid was hit by a bomb was because an asshole set off a bomb. What you're doing is called victim blaming. While I would agree that making decisions based on emotions alone can be unwise, it does appear that you are reaching a bit trying to prove your point.