Born Again: Has Penn Jillette Seen the Light?

[Mr.Obvious]

I found this clip and decided to share.

https://youtu.be/gh5XrZJkJxc

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Fantastic video.. Thanks for sharing it..

[Youssuf Ramadan]

Interesting.  Nice one!  :-)

[Johan]

Very nice find! Thanks for posting.

[Shiranu]

Man, it's refreshing to see an intelligent and influential atheist who hasn't given in to fear and hate. Agreed with him 100% on "we have to stop being cowards"...

[PickelledEggs]

I found this clip and decided to share.

https://youtu.be/gh5XrZJkJxc

Gonna share this on the facebook page. Very good video

[chill98]

What a load of crap! 

My family is from pakistan
Every one in my community is a devout muslim.
...and it is not unlikely that someone in my community would kill me.
... the other side considers me muslim and wants to get me out of the country and treat me badly...

and I hear trump giving speeches ...

This is a legal immigrant family and the son, who is a born in america citizen who would be under no threat from Trumps immigration from muslim country's look/see, claiming to have 'heard Trump giving speeches'. 

Where the F is the call from Jillette about the threat of Islamic violence against this kid who is terrified of his usa based muslim community!  Oh wait, Jillettes point has nothing to do with atheism, religion, freedom in the usa, it is only about Trump.

Yes Islam is wrong [as an atheist] yes xianity is wrong, yes, judism is wrong ... but there's refugees that are suffering in a way that history will not be kind to us for ignoring that...

we must love them, we must embrace them, we must help them...

Even if they believe things we know are wrong...

No We Don't have to love them or embrace them.  And I have no problem air dropping food to refugee camps set up outside of syria.  Preferably someplace in Turkey so its easy to ship their asses back home when things settle down.

How do I as an atheist say to muslims, your religion is wrong, your terrorists are crazy, this is dangerous get over it and  then say I love you you're welcome.

We have to do gods work because god's not gonna and that love and compassion is not gonna come from allah...

Is it dangerous to embrace muslims because some of them may be terrorists? Yeah...Do we have to protect ourselves ? Yeah we do...

And I dont have any of the answers...

And That is the whole of the argument.  I don't have any answers but I don't like trump so I will appeal to emotion and invoke god to make my point.

None of you are stepping back with a good healthy WTF? 

How about this Penn?

say to muslims, your religion is wrong, your terrorists are crazy, this is dangerous.  End of discussion.  You are not welcome here, in this country where freedom FROM religion is supposed to have equal ground with freedom of religion.  Islam is incompatible with the foundation of this country and until Islam undergoes its own reformation, its ideas are anathema to the general welfare of the usa.

[widdershins]

Holy shit, I pooped a little there in the beginning.

@chill98

How can you look at this kid and think, "Fuck you, terrorist!"?  It's not a load of crap, it's a plea for compassion to help a people who are suffering.  Yes, SOME of them might kill a man for leaving Islam.  This man's parents would disown him.  Would it be better if they were Jehovah's Witnesses?  They would do the same thing then.  Yes, there are SOME bad people there, which he freely admitted.  But a big "Fuck you!" to suffering children because SOME of the people who would come over with them MIGHT be hard line Muslims who would murder someone for leaving Islam, or because SOME of them might be terrorists?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be tough to integrate them.  There have been problems in other countries.  Many of the men have a serious problem with seeing strong, independent women walking through their neighborhoods in shorts and a tank top.  These men are used to having absolute control over their women.  But really, it wasn't so much different in our culture just half a century ago.  There WILL be problems.  That's why we have laws and police and courts.  That's why we don't group them altogether in one place where they are isolated from our culture and able to foster their old beliefs that murder is okay if someone pisses you off.

What you are advocating is letting an entire populace suffer, including innocent children, because the way many of the adults think scares you.  It scares me to, to be honest.  I would definitely take extra precautions if they moved into my neighborhood until I got to know what kind of people they were.  But those precautions would not include letting their children suffer and die to protect my own from what MIGHT happen.

[chill98]

How can you look at this kid and think, "Fuck you, terrorist!"?  It's not a load of crap, it's a plea for compassion to help a people who are suffering.

Appeal to emotion (again).  In this case, its not going to work on me.  It is a civil war going on there and if the same was going on here (even less of an uprising) our government would react the same way.  One only needs to look at Occupy Wall street (for example).  It did not take long before the powers that be stepped in to defend the status quo, with escalating violence towards the protesters. 

I have no problem with sending in food/medical help/etc.  I do have a problem with open borders/unchecked immigration.  Two separate issues.  The child in your pic was not a refugee, rather he was in that position due to unknown choices his parents made.  Did they stay because they were too poor?  Don't know.  Did they stay to support the uprising?  Don't know.  Did they stay to protect wealth (however limited it was)?  Dont know.  Is daddy a Isis supporter?  Don't know.  Is the family Syrian government supporters? Dont know.

And because I DONT KNOW, I am not willing to throw open our borders and welcome them unconditionally. 

  But really, it wasn't so much different in our culture just half a century ago.  There WILL be problems.  That's why we have laws and police and courts. 

The only stop gap measure we have is the border.  It is the LAST place we can stop them from contaminating our system with their problems.  We have enough of our own right now without importing more.   I said UNTIL Islam goes through its REFORMATION. Islamic values are not our values:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv3a80RGiw

What you are advocating is letting an entire populace suffer, including innocent children, because the way many of the adults think scares you.  It scares me to, to be honest.  I would definitely take extra precautions if they moved into my neighborhood until I got to know what kind of people they were.  But those precautions would not include letting their children suffer and die to protect my own from what MIGHT happen.

There are 7 billion people on this planet, and more than 5 billion of them are not muslims.  I am ok with expending our limited resources on those 5+ billion rather than wasting time, money and citizenship on a value system that is contrary to what I believe is right.

[Blackleaf]

I am rather on the fence on this issue. I can see that both sides have good points to consider. On one hand, compassion for those who are suffering seems so natural and altruistic. However, on the other hand, it can be very dangerous letting people into our country unchecked. If we let them in, there is a good chance they will choose to congregate together the way that other minority groups have in the past. At that point, policing them will be very difficult.

Just look at the polygamist Mormon compounds. We know that the things they do are against the law. People who were lucky enough to somehow escape their compounds have been on live television to tell how they rape little girls, force them to marry older men, and threaten them with Hell fire if they even think of trying to leave. They have their own police who enforce their backwards ways of life, and we do nothing to stop them. When I think of what a compound of people who are Muslims could do, considering their religion commands that they resort to whatever means necessary to spread their religion. Their religion thrives on bloodshed, and that will likely never change. This makes me a little reluctant to agree that letting a large number of refugees who actively practice that religion is a good idea.

[Solomon Zorn]

There are a multitude of sad situations in the world. I wish we could fix them all. But we can't. The more we try, sometimes, it seems, the more problems we create.

[widdershins]

Appeal to emotion (again).  In this case, its not going to work on me.  It is a civil war going on there and if the same was going on here (even less of an uprising) our government would react the same way.  One only needs to look at Occupy Wall street (for example).  It did not take long before the powers that be stepped in to defend the status quo, with escalating violence towards the protesters. 

It's not entirely an appeal to emotion.  The picture shows real harm being done to real children who could be helped.  Yes, it's an emotional picture, but it's also an evidentiary picture and it is a picture of obviously "not a terrorist".

So yeah, there was an appeal to emotion there, but it was not the logical fallacy you appear to be claiming.  This picture clearly shows an injured not terrorist in need of help, which by itself soundly refutes your irrational "end of discussion, you are not welcome here" bullshit.  YOU don't welcome them.  I do.  So "you are not welcome" is not correct.  They are very welcome, just not by you.  At any rate the blanked "you are not welcome" is bullshit, to say the least.

I really have no idea how my first post in this thread is an appeal to emotion "again", though.

I have no problem with sending in food/medical help/etc.  I do have a problem with open borders/unchecked immigration.  Two separate issues.  The child in your pic was not a refugee, rather he was in that position due to unknown choices his parents made.  Did they stay because they were too poor?  Don't know.  Did they stay to support the uprising?  Don't know.  Did they stay to protect wealth (however limited it was)?  Dont know.  Is daddy a Isis supporter?  Don't know.  Is the family Syrian government supporters? Dont know.

Don't know apparently means "presumed guilty until proven innocent and then still fuck off"?

And because I DONT KNOW, I am not willing to throw open our borders and welcome them unconditionally.

If you want to talk logical fallacies how about that straw man right there?  When did I ever say "throw open our borders" or that we should welcome them "unconditionally"?  In fact, who the hell has EVER suggested we "throw open our borders" or welcome ANYONE "unconditionally"?

The only stop gap measure we have is the border.  It is the LAST place we can stop them from contaminating our system with their problems.  We have enough of our own right now without importing more.   I said UNTIL Islam goes through its REFORMATION. Islamic values are not our values:

"WE" have no "values".  There is no "we" when it comes to values in America.  And, in fact, for MILLIONS of Americans Islamic values ARE their values, about 1% of the population.  You act as if "your" values have exclusivity for what "American" values are.  The reality is there are a lot of different "values" in America, Islam included.

Hard line Islam thrives on the very segregation you are demanding, actually.

There are 7 billion people on this planet, and more than 5 billion of them are not muslims.  I am ok with expending our limited resources on those 5+ billion rather than wasting time, money and citizenship on a value system that is contrary to what I believe is right.

Most of the world believes things that are contrary to what you believe is right.  And to single out Islam as a single, well defined thing which is ALWAYS opposed to your beliefs is just plain ignorance.  You are lumping all Muslims together into a single group which believes a single "bad" thing.  There are Muslim women's rights activists.  There are Muslims speaking out against terrorism.  There are Muslims whose values are very much in line with your own working to change the Muslim values which are not.  And most of them are in Western countries, where they enjoy the freedom to speak out with a greatly reduced fear of retaliation.

Don't get me wrong.  Islam is shit.  It is a bad fucking religion with some bad fucking ideas, generally speaking.  But that's the key.  It is bad "generally speaking".  Not 100% of the time.  Many Muslims, especially those who have been Westernized, are actually more decent as human beings than some of the rabid asshole Christians who come here.  What is the ONE THING every Muslim in the world has in common?  They are all human beings, young and old, male and female, every single one of them.  Yes, it's an appeal to emotion, but when you turn your back on a "Muslim" you are turning your back on a "human being" whose ideas may OR MAY NOT be at odds with yours.  You are saying it's best not to take the chance and help them because you MIGHT disagree with them fundamentally.  I am saying that is a bullshit way to live your life, turning your back on a human being because you MIGHT not like how they think.  If you look at that picture and see, not an injured child in need of help, but instead only imagine his turban wearing father shooting his AK-47 in the air while screaming "Allah Akbar!" because that MIGHT be true then, really, we have nothing to talk about.  And frankly, if that's how you think then you have more in common with hard-line Muslims than you think.  Both of you choose to see people who disagree with you as expendable sub-humans whose lives aren't worth considering or protecting.

[Baruch]

If you want to help a Muslim kid ... there are plenty here already.  African-American Muslims, born here.  Help one of them.  Why is helping a foreigner superior to helping an American?

On the OP ... Gillette is a politician who performs magic tricks ;-)  Most dangerous kind!  I don't mind his atheism ... I do mind his ideology.

[chill98]

So yeah, there was an appeal to emotion there, but it was not the logical fallacy you appear to be claiming.  This picture clearly shows an injured not terrorist in need of help, which by itself soundly refutes your irrational "end of discussion, you are not welcome here" bullshit.  YOU don't welcome them.

It is absolutely an appeal to emotion on all fronts, starting with Penn Jillette.  The kid was getting help, hence the picture of him sitting in an ambulance.  His parents are responsible for his condition not me, not the USA.  I don't know why they decided to stay in a war zone.  Assad is not stopping them from moving to another city.

I really have no idea how my first post in this thread is an appeal to emotion "again", though.
Don't know apparently means "presumed guilty until proven innocent and then still fuck off"?
If you want to talk logical fallacies how about that straw man right there?

The strawman is your creation.  The border and immigration is a separate issue from once you are on the ground in the usa as a legal immigrant/refugee and innocent until proven guilty.  Two separate issues. 

"WE" have no "values".  There is no "we" when it comes to values in America.  And, in fact, for MILLIONS of Americans Islamic values ARE their values, about 1% of the population.  You act as if "your" values have exclusivity for what "American" values are.  The reality is there are a lot of different "values" in America, Islam included.

Here we have a great example of handwaving and strawmanning extraordinaire.  We don't need Islamic values in the usa and islamic values run contrary to the foundation values of this country, you know, that pesky document, the Bill of rights.  That pesky little document actually REJECTS basic islamic values wholeheartedly.  Islamic values are NOT our values.

Hard line Islam thrives on the very segregation you are demanding, actually.

Yes, it thrives on segregation AND subjugation which is another damn good reason to shut them out of this country. Again, more examples of why muslim application for immigration should be heavily scrutinized. Conditional even.  And Rarely granted.

And to single out Islam as a single, well defined thing which is ALWAYS opposed to your beliefs is just plain ignorance.  You are lumping all Muslims together into a single group which believes a single "bad" thing. 

You claim its ignorance and to that I say phfft.  You dish out politically correct mumbo jumbo after posting a picture of typical casualties of war; a war against ISIS in syria.  That kid would not have been hurt if not for islamic practices.  End of story.

Don't get me wrong.  Islam is shit.  It is a bad fucking religion with some bad fucking ideas, generally speaking.  But that's the key.  It is bad "generally speaking".  Not 100% of the time. 

Sez u.  I mean seriously, there isn't a more fucked up religion going on that I can think of. Lots of them are shit, but they ain't out beheading people, raping captives or burning POWs to death. And I am VERY ok with shutting the border down to them UNTIL IT REFORMS. 

Many Muslims, especially those who have been Westernized, are actually more decent as human beings than some of the rabid asshole Christians who come here.

For now.  Tomorrow they may flip and turn into that blood thirsty savage for allah like this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzammil_Hassan
or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

etc.

Ya can take the muslim out of syria but ya can't take islam out of the muslim....

My family is from pakistan
Every one in my community is a devout muslim.
...and it is not unlikely that someone in my community would kill me.

He was speaking about his muslim community in the usa killing him for being an atheist. Islam is contrary to the values of the USA.  You can try to mealy mouth your way around that invoking pictures of dirty kids and dead puppies but it does not change the basics of the issue.  Islam is not a religion of peace.

[FaithIsFilth]

I have no problem with sending in food/medical help/etc.  I do have a problem with open borders/unchecked immigration.  Two separate issues.  The child in your pic was not a refugee, rather he was in that position due to unknown choices his parents made.

He was in that position because the United States and Britain decided that Syria needed an uprising and that Assad needed to go. Action to harm the Syrian government was talked about by the US and Britain since at least way back in 2007-2009. You guys are responsible for this whole mess and have provided more weapons to terrorists than anyone else has, so as far as I'm concerned, your country has a moral obligation to take in these refugees and provide them with safety.