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Game of Thrones

Started by stromboli, June 03, 2013, 11:22:51 AM

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Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Blackleaf on May 25, 2019, 11:30:06 PM
Season 8 is definitely one of those things that seems fine on first viewing, but starts showing its cracks as soon as you stop to think about what's happening.

Well that's the same with everything, though innit?
You could say that about season 1 of the same show.
You could say that about any show.

Honestly, I'm thinking exactly because I heard so much crap of the eight season, it's actually alright for now. I'm watching it later than everyone else and thus have lower expectations than those watching it when it came out.

Also, I'm thinking a part, not all mind you, but a part of the hate season 8 is getting, (because the first episodes were also getting lots of hate when they came out, I remember,) is because it's not turning out the way people want. But that's kind of the point of GOT, and has been a part of its staple. But at this point, we've all spent way too much time and effort on disecting and analyzing this show so that any fantheory or prediction or, to us logical consequence, that doesn't follow in the show, is a betrayal of the source material and a drop of the ball by D&D. Generally, it seems to me, the more invested one is in GOT the more outraged they are with the final seasons.
And yes, I agree: outrunning the books and thus working without ample source material influenced the show poorly. The first seasons ARE better. They really are. But I also notice that all of the book readers seemed more judgemental over the later, source-less seasons. (While D&D still knew all the events and had access abound to GRR Martin.) Now, I'm also a book reader. But I read them once, and I started after season one of GOT came out. After that I read the books and was never surprised again untill the show went past them. But imagine earlier readers. People who've been following GOT for ages, since it first came out. Who've been waiting for the winds of winter for nigh on a decade. All the while analyzing, making connections, theorizing and predicting... And still, no matter how you sliced it, most were wrong about a lot of things. Add to that that no show was ever going to satisfy them. I doubt the actual book even could after that time. That's bound to lead to a frustration that gets in the way of simple viewing pleasure.
In short, GOT was a phenomenon that swept all of us up. And those of us who lost ourselves so much that we thought we could  predict it,  were most angry of all when that image of ourselves fell short.

At least, that's what I think for now. I still have three episodes to go that can dissapoint the heck out of me.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Hydra009

#661
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 26, 2019, 05:22:08 AM
Well that's the same with everything, though innit?
You could say that about season 1 of the same show.
You could say that about any show.
No, one can nitpick about good movies/TV and find weird errors, but that's a totally different pony from glaring flaws like poor characterization, aborted character arcs, and improper setup for big twists that don't make much sense.

This isn't like "Luke Skywalker is a skilled pilot right off the bat, how strange!" And more like "The rebels kinda forgot about the Empire" and "Han Solo says I know to Leia because he just wants her to be quiet while he thinks about Tetris" and "C3PO kills the Emperor because that would subvert expectations"

There's a nearly 12 parsecs gulf between those two types of things.

Cavebear

Quote from: Hydra009 on May 26, 2019, 06:59:47 AM
No, one can nitpick about good movies/TV and find weird errors, but that's a totally different pony from glaring flaws like poor characterization, aborted character arcs, and improper setup for big twists that don't make much sense.

This isn't like "Luke Skywalker is a skilled pilot right off the bat, how strange!" And more like "The rebels kinda forgot about the Empire" and "Han Solo says I know to Leia because he just wants her to be quiet while he thinks about Tetris" and "C3PO kills the Emperor because that would subvert expectations"

There's a nearly 12 parsecs gulf between those two types of things.

Minor point...  Luke was experienced at hunting swamp rats.  If THAT doesn't teach you how to destroy a Deathstar, what would?

Carry on...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Hydra009

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 26, 2019, 05:22:08 AM
The first seasons ARE better. They really are. But I also notice that all of the book readers seemed more judgemental over the later, source-less seasons. (While D&D still knew all the events and had access abound to GRR Martin.)
They criticize the later season more because there's more to criticize.  What has Tyrion said that's been interesting in the past couple seasons?  Varys?  Littlefinger?  You can go down the list, comparing season1-4 characters to their 5-8 counterparts.  Most have had a very noticeable decline.

D&D have a very rough sketch from GRRM, but that's it, they're essentially doing it on their own.  And it shows in the final product.

QuoteAnd still, no matter how you sliced it, most were wrong about a lot of things. Add to that that no show was ever going to satisfy them. I doubt the actual book even could after that time. That's bound to lead to a frustration that gets in the way of simple viewing pleasure.
In short, GOT was a phenomenon that swept all of us up. And those of us who lost ourselves so much that we thought we could  predict it,  were most angry of all when that image of ourselves fell short.
It's not the case that the fan base is unpleaseable (most of us love the Battle of the Bastards and other events) or that we're just mad that our fan theories are wrong (no one's losing sleep over Varys not being a merman).

There's actually a lot of things I like about season 8.  They're just outweighed by some monumentally bad writing decisions.  Even the actors got frustrated with this stuff.  They got the real script and thought it was a joke.

The real tragedy here is that we could've been pleased but we weren't because the writers rushed and didn't take the time to make sure it was good.

Blackleaf

Yeah. I didn't hate GoT's ending, but definitely fell short of all the buildup it took to get there. It's not that the show didn't end the way I expected. Actually, it ended pretty similarly to how I was expecting, with a few exceptions. The problem was how they justified it. It just doesn't make sense. The Red Wedding was frustrating, but we love GoT for that kind of unexpected brutality and realism. The ending is brutal, but it's not realistic. You have armies that are nearly completely wiped out in one battle suddenly regenerate in the next episode. You have characters who lack any sense, who completely break character just to get to the ending the writers wanted. With more time given to character development, it could have worked much better. But this season is something I'd liken to taking an entire season of a popular TV show and stuffing it into an hour and a half movie.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mr.Obvious

Watched ep 4, still cool with it.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Mr.Obvious

Watched s8e5.

[spoiler]I was one betting on mad-queen danearys being a thing before season 8. I only saw it grow throughout the season.

I agree that it's weird how many fighters Dany and the north still had who were combat ready. But troop movements, size and logistics have never been the shows strongsuit. I can live with it. [/spoiler]

Still okay with the season so far.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Hydra009

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 26, 2019, 04:33:23 PM
Watched s8e5.

[spoiler]I was one betting on mad-queen danearys being a thing before season 8. I only saw it grow throughout the season.

I agree that it's weird how many fighters Dany and the north still had who were combat ready. But troop movements, size and logistics have never been the shows strongsuit. I can live with it. [/spoiler]

Still okay with the season so far.
One more to go.  Mind the gap!

Hydra009

Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2019, 12:01:35 PM
Yeah. I didn't hate GoT's ending, but definitely fell short of all the buildup it took to get there.
The part that kills me is that the whole series is someone's story.  What is their story?  And why are they telling it?  The big reveal is very underwhelming.

Baruch

Not all stories are riveting, unless you are a steel worker ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hydra009

Quote from: Baruch on May 26, 2019, 06:08:56 PM
Not all stories are riveting, unless you are a steel worker ;-)
You could have gone with Tony Stark.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on May 26, 2019, 06:08:56 PM
Not all stories are riveting, unless you are a steel worker ;-)

OK, I'm not into GOT at all.  But "riveting, unless you are a steel worker"?  That was GOOD!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on May 26, 2019, 09:54:20 PM
OK, I'm not into GOT at all.  But "riveting, unless you are a steel worker"?  That was GOOD!

Anachronistic, mostly welding today ...
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on May 27, 2019, 12:27:55 AM
Anachronistic, mostly welding today ...

Unless you are Rosie...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Hydra009

An idea for how the show became a lightning rod for criticism in recent years:

The audience has gotten used to GRRM's signature brutal realism and mysteries and expected that to continue after D&D ran out of book material.  It didn't.

Also, the core audience (asoiaf fans) are people who have been trained by the books to be very detail-oriented.  Seemingly trivial details can make or break theories.  And small discrepancies can indicate lying/scheming, so people watch out for that carefully.

So you have detail-oriented people who go over this stuff with a fine-toothed comb and you no longer feed them theory fodder.  What do they do instead?  They seize on every error, great or small.  And it just so happens that the show has also started putting less care into the small details, so there are also more mistakes to capitalize on and share to the entire internet.

The end result is a perfect tinder for an internet backlash and a firestorm of criticism.

TL;DR: Lack of source material (playing it by ear), making mistakes, having a super analytical fanbase = blood in the streets