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Game of Thrones

Started by stromboli, June 03, 2013, 11:22:51 AM

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Shiranu

QuoteYou get a very down-to-earth perspective.  They don't give a rat's ass about honor or justice or feuding lords, they care about getting paid - so they'll tell you how it really is.

Meh, fighting for honour, or family, or justice is just as, "how it really is" as fighting to satisfy your own ambitions. They all are the same thing at the end of the day; power. Bronn wants enough power to buy bitches, own a castle, and live like a noble... while someone like Cersei wants enough power to buy bitches (more figuratively), own a castle, and live like a noble. The only characters like that who are really exciting are Littlefinger and Varys. I still don't trust the Varys has the good of the kingdom at the centre of his heart, regardless of what he says.

That's why characters like Jon, Dany... even the Hound, Jorah, the Nightswatch, the Brotherhood are all much more interesting... what they fight is much more "how it really is" than anything Bronn has ever fought for. They don't have a choice; it's fight or die. There is nothing more real than that. You can choose to not fight for money and go on your merry way... not so much when you fight against death itself.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

#496
Quote from: Shiranu on August 29, 2017, 07:27:09 PMMeh, fighting for honour, or family, or justice is just as, "how it really is" as fighting to satisfy your own ambitions. They all are the same thing at the end of the day; power. Bronn wants enough power to buy bitches, own a castle, and live like a noble... while someone like Cersei wants enough power to buy bitches (more figuratively), own a castle, and live like a noble.
I meant that "they'll tell you how it really is" in the sense that the merc probably knows that the whole conflict is over money/land/power, as opposed to its official, noble reason.  They've seen more of the ugly side of the conflict than most others and don't tow the party line.  Bronn is worlds apart from someone like Polliver (a Lannister loyalist from the Hound's "I'm going to have to eat every fucking chicken in this room" scene)

QuoteThe only characters like that who are really exciting are Littlefinger and Varys. I still don't trust the Varys has the good of the kingdom at the centre of his heart, regardless of what he says.
What does he want, truly?  It's still a mystery.  Perhaps it's just as he says - he truly wants a peaceable realm with a just ruler.  But no doubt he also wants to whisper in that ruler's ear.  To accomplish what?  What could a just (and pliable) ruler provide that an unjust ruler would not or could not?  Hmmm....

QuoteThat's why characters like Jon, Dany... even the Hound, Jorah, the Nightswatch, the Brotherhood are all much more interesting... what they fight is much more "how it really is" than anything Bronn has ever fought for. They don't have a choice; it's fight or die. There is nothing more real than that. You can choose to not fight for money and go on your merry way... not so much when you fight against death itself.
Well, it's not strictly fight or die.  Running is an option.  It's entirely possible to say to yourself "Not my problem" and put enough distance between yourself and the undead threat that you could grow old and die in some pleasure house in Essos before the end of the world.  That's an attitude a lot of people would have, if not the means.  Facing the problem head-on is extremely heroic.  It's also nearly suicidal.  Fight or die could be accurately amended to "fight and die".  Heroes have longer tales than lives, unfortunately.

I had hoped the Knights of the Mind (the Maesters of the Citadel) would play a larger role in this conflict.  "Scientia imperii decus et tutamen", after all.  Apparently not.  More's the pity.

Mr.Obvious

#497
On season 8 (season 7 spoiler)

[spoiler]
Fuck the great war. Fuck Cleganebowl. Fuck the valonqar prophecy. Fuck dragons vs Ice dragons. Fuck all those squables.

What I really want to see:

Danaerys Targaryan and Jon Snow walking into Winterfell hand in hand. (Or swooping down on dragons, I'm cool with it.)
Danaerys holds Jon's hand lovingly.
"So this is your home?" She asks, her eyes darting at the bleak but strong and ancient castle.
"Aye." Jon says, breathing in the Northern air of home.
"I can't wait to meet your friends and family."
We see a huge figure from behind. Stunned at the sight. Beyond Jon turns to the feel of the fat man's eyes glaring at him.
Shift of camera.
"I kind of actually thought I'd never see you again." Sam's kind voice breathes.
Cue to Jon's smile. The two walk closer and embrace. Dany stands by, doting but lost.
Jon breaks the hug and gestures to her. "Where are my manners? Sam, this is Danearys Targaeryan. First of her name. Ruler of the andals, the Roynar and the First men. Mother of Dragons. Breaker of Chains. Rightfull heir to the Iron throne..."
Sam bites his lip.
"Lord protector of the Realm. And the last, best hope for Westeros in the fight against the army of the dead. Our Queen." Jon turns. "And this, your Grace, is my brother of the Night's Watch. My most loyal and best friend Sam..."
Danearys breathes to say something.
"Tarly." Jon finishes.
"Fuck." Dany lets escape.

[spoiler]
Alternatively:
"Tarly." Jon finishes.
"Your Grace." Sam says to a stunned Danearys. "How is Ser Jorah Mormont, by the way? I healed him of his greyscale."
"I've made a huge mistake." Dany lets escape.
*The sound of silence by Simon and Garfunkel starts playing*[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Sal1981

Season 7 finale:
[spoiler]
I really liked it when Sansa confronted Baelish and how all his scheming started the wars and basically everything bad happening in Westeros, and probably beyond the Narrow Sea. There's an article that points out how he's responsible for all the shit they're in now south of the Wall.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/08/29/this-one-game-of-thrones-character-is-basically-responsible-for-all-the-things

I never learn, I didn't foresee Cersei going back on her promise and making a deal with Euron Greyjoy to get shipping the gold company's 20.000 men to Westeros when she spoke with Jamie the 2nd time. I genuinely thought she would be  convinced to deal with the army of the dead after she saw the wight.

I thought the season finale was a tad much moralizing about lying and not keeping promises. Which was basically the whole gist of Baelish's execution.
[/spoiler]

Hydra009

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 30, 2017, 05:39:58 AM[spoiler]Jon turns. "And this, your Grace, is my brother of the Night's Watch. My most loyal and best friend Sam..."
Danearys breathes to say something.
"Tarly." Jon finishes.
"Fuck." Dany lets escape.[/spoiler]
I am 100% behind this.

Hydra009

Quote from: Sal1981 on August 30, 2017, 07:25:33 PM[spoiler]
I really liked it when Sansa confronted Baelish and how all his scheming started the wars and basically everything bad happening in Westeros, and probably beyond the Narrow Sea.
[spoiler]Yeah, but I kinda wish he got further along on his plans before he bit the dust.  Maybe even a serious contender for the throne (unfortunately, Cersei's white-knuckled grip on power precluded that).  It seems like he got halfway there and just kinda got stuck.  And even after getting found out by Bran, he didn't get out of dodge.  Just waiting around to be executed.  Kinda sad.  But hey, that's how things go sometimes.

Also, how many people have had a hand on his throat or a blade to his face?  Seems like sooner or later, he'd piss off someone just crazy enough to do it.[/spoiler]

Quote[spoiler]I never learn, I didn't foresee Cersei going back on her promise and making a deal with Euron Greyjoy to get shipping the gold company's 20.000 men to Westeros when she spoke with Jamie the 2nd time. I genuinely thought she would be  convinced to deal with the army of the dead after she saw the wight.

I thought the season finale was a tad much moralizing about lying and not keeping promises. Which was basically the whole gist of Baelish's execution.
[spoiler]The really surprising thing is that anyone still trusts a Lannister promise anymore.  The thing about betraying someone's trust is that you can only do it once.  After that, no one will trust you.  Surely, the other characters are suspicious about whether or not the Lannister forces will join them.  When they notice that none are on their way (which I imagine would be pretty quickly), there will be hell to pay.  Dany might even fly south and let loose before linking up with the rest of Coalition forces.[/spoiler]

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 30, 2017, 09:37:33 PM
[spoiler]  Surely, the other characters are suspicious about whether or not the Lannister forces will join them.  When they notice that none are on their way (which I imagine would be pretty quickly), there will be hell to pay.  [/spoiler]

[spoiler]I do believe after the joined slaughter by Drogon and the dothraki, Jaime might very well be the sum total of the Lannister forces, until the Golden Compass arrives. And he's heading North.[/spoiler]
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Cavebear

Quote from: Deidre32 on August 13, 2017, 10:31:21 PM
[spoiler]The Lannisters must stop making more babies ahhhh![/spoiler]

I'm loving this season so far.

Is that STILL on?  I just watch science and history dvds
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 12:04:12 PM
Is that STILL on?  I just watch science and history dvds

Lol. You make it sound like GoT isn't real history.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Hydra009

#504
Nitpicky criticisms of s7e7 from Preston Jacobs:

[spoiler]There's no logical reason for Jon/Dany and co to seek a truce with Cersei.

Cersei has little to contribute.  Lannister forces have been fighting for almost the entire run of the show.  They've been hemorrhaging soldiers.  How they can still field an army at all is pretty amazing.  AFAIK, in season 7 Lannister forces now consist of a few veteran Lannisters (like Jamie), a lot of young Lannister bannermen, allies (Euron, Tarly, etc), and mercs (Bronn, presumably others) - all have little value to Dany except the veterans.

Dany already has northmen, Watchmen, and wildlings (all well adapted to the cold), Unsullied (footmen extraordinaire), Dothraki (light/ranged cavalry extraordinaire), and dragons.  Lannister forces would fill no niche, except maybe as fodder.  And their unfamiliarity with cold conditions could make them a liability

Instead of trying to mete out a truce, Dany could simply withdraw her forces, moving them all north of the Neck.  The Neck serves as a natural barrier and the great distance between King's Landing and Winterfell would hinder pursuit, so it's unlikely that Lannister forces would venture that far, especially considering that Cersei has tenuous control over the Reach and no control whatsoever over Dorne and the Vale.  Any sane person would deal with those first.  Unless she's suicidal, Cersei wouldn't attack consolidated Coalition forces at Winterfell.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Tyrion claims that he killed Tywin because Tywin tried to have him killed.  In reality, Tywin was going to send him to the wall, but Tyrion opted for a trial by combat instead.  Tyrion was only sentenced to death when his champion lost.

Cersei blames Tyrion for Myrcella's death but her argument is bizarre.  She claims that Tyrion weakened House Lannister by killing Tywin, which ultimately ended up in Marcella's death.  That may or may not be so, but a more direct argument would be that Tyrion is to blame for Myrcella's death because Tyrion sent her to Dorne.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Littlefinger's trial was a real kangaroo court.

* It's pretty amazing that Littlefinger didn't have a plausible explanation for holding a knife to Ned's throat during the failed coup against King Joffrey (or the successful coup against Stannis, depending on your perspective).  That event was personally witnessed by tons of people.  Littlefinger has had years to come up with a good story for that one, yet he comes up with bupkis.

* The testimony is just a bunch of kids asserting stuff without real proof.  And Sansa's story about the Vale completely contradicts her earlier testimony that she gave to the Vale lords - at least one of which is personally present for both stories.  Realistically speaking, he'd call her out for her false testimony, casting her entire testimony in doubt.

* Littlefinger sending Sansa to the Boltons could be an honest mistake on his part.  Book Littlefinger knows that Ramsay Bolton is a monster, but TV Littlefinger was apparently that clueless, as hard to believe as it is.  Also, Littlefinger told Sansa that it was her choice and that if she didn't want to, he'd turn right back around.  He could argue informed consent.

* It's not so much that Sansa learned scheming/manipulation from Littlefinger, it's that she essentially has the word of God backing her up.  You don't have to be a good lawyer when Bran is your witness.  He knows everything.  If he's believed, you can convict any wrongdoer.  She didn't outplay Littlefinger at all.

In summary, it took an omniscient boy, a lack of a real trial, and Littlefinger acting completely out of character to get Littlefinger killed in the end.

* The man/woman who passes the sentence should swing the sword, dammit.[/spoiler]

Mr.Obvious

#505
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 31, 2017, 12:34:00 PM
Nitpicky criticisms of s7e7 from Preston Jacobs:

[spoiler]There's no logical reason for Jon/Dany and co to seek a truce with Cersei.

Cersei has little to contribute.  Lannister forces have been fighting for almost the entire run of the show.  They've been hemorrhaging soldiers.  How they can still field an army at all is pretty amazing.  AFAIK, in season 7 Lannister forces now consist of a few veteran Lannisters (like Jamie), a lot of young Lannister bannermen, allies (Euron, Tarly, etc), and mercs (Bronn, presumably others) - all have little value to Dany except the veterans.

Dany already has northmen, Watchmen, and wildlings (all well adapted to the cold), Unsullied (footmen extraordinaire), Dothraki (light/ranged cavalry extraordinaire), and dragons.  Lannister forces would fill no niche, except maybe as fodder.  And their unfamiliarity with cold conditions could make them a liability

Instead of trying to mete out a truce, Dany could simply withdraw her forces, moving them all north of the Neck.  The Neck serves as a natural barrier and the great distance between King's Landing and Winterfell would hinder pursuit, so it's unlikely that Lannister forces would venture that far, especially considering that Cersei has tenuous control over the Reach and no control whatsoever over Dorne and the Vale.  Any sane person would deal with those first.  Unless she's suicidal, Cersei wouldn't attack consolidated Coalition forces at Winterfell.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Tyrion claims that he killed Tywin because Tywin tried to have him killed.  In reality, Tywin was going to send him to the wall, but Tyrion opted for a trial by combat instead.  Tyrion was only sentenced to death when his champion lost.

Cersei blames Tyrion for Myrcella's death but her argument is bizarre.  She claims that Tyrion weakened House Lannister by killing Tywin, which ultimately ended up in Marcella's death.  That may or may not be so, but a more direct argument would be that Tyrion is to blame for Myrcella's death because Tyrion sent her to Dorne.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Littlefinger's trial was a real kangaroo court.

* It's pretty amazing that Littlefinger didn't have a plausible explanation for holding a knife to Ned's throat during the failed coup against King Joffrey (or the successful coup against Stannis, depending on your perspective).  That event was personally witnessed by tons of people.  Littlefinger has had years to come up with a good story for that one, yet he comes up with bupkis.

* The testimony is just a bunch of kids asserting stuff without real proof.  And Sansa's story about the Vale completely contradicts her earlier testimony that she gave to the Vale lords - at least one of which is personally present for both stories.  Realistically speaking, he'd call her out for her false testimony, casting her entire testimony in doubt.

* Littlefinger sending Sansa to the Boltons could be an honest mistake on his part.  Book Littlefinger knows that Ramsay Bolton is a monster, but TV Littlefinger was apparently that clueless, as hard to believe as it is.  Also, Littlefinger told Sansa that it was her choice and that if she didn't want to, he'd turn right back around.  He could argue informed consent.

* It's not so much that Sansa learned scheming/manipulation from Littlefinger, it's that she essentially has the word of God backing her up.  You don't have to be a good lawyer when Bran is your witness.  He knows everything.  If he's believed, you can convict any wrongdoer.

She didn't outplay Littlefinger, she just has an omniscient person back up her claims.

* The man/woman who passes the sentence should swing the sword, dammit.[/spoiler]

As to the first thing. I said that before too. And I agree.

Second point: [spoiler] Yeah. But I think Tywin would've had him killed if Jaime hadn't offerd himself up as a bargaining chip. And Jaime did make clear he'd offered himself up as a bargaining chip. Plus, saying that Tywin sentenced him to die was something Tryion already said during the bathroom scene. After the trial by combat; Tywin did declare his life forfait. Yes, he didn't have a real choice... But he did do it. To his own son. Whom I'm pretty sure of that he knew was innocent.[/spoiler]

Third point: [spoiler]I agree it wasn't a fair trial. But I don't think that was the point. And I don't think it devalues the story or the scene. Littlefinger was superb at playing the game and avoiding the rules. But he miscalculated in Sansa, thinking she still felt she needed him and that he had control over her. She was his only lifeline in a castle full of Northeners and Vale soldiers that dispised him. It wasn't fair. And it wasn't by the rules. It was, as Sansa said, 'Justice she made herself'. Which arguably isn't justice at all, it's vigilantism at best. It was mob rule. And that's the point. for all his clever deflections and paper shields... Once he found himself obsolete, his cheer backstabbery and dickery over the years was enough to have him linched. It was no justice. It was murder. But it's still hard to argue against anyone not making an effort to stop it from happening.[/spoiler]
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Hydra009

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 31, 2017, 12:53:11 PM[spoiler]I agree it wasn't a fair trial. But I don't think that was the point. And I don't think it devalues the story or the scene. Littlefinger was superb at playing the game and avoiding the rules. But he miscalculated in Sansa, thinking she still felt she needed him and that he had control over her. She was his only lifeline in a castle full of Northeners and Vale soldiers that dispised him. It wasn't fair. And it wasn't by the rules. It was, as Sansa said, 'Justice she made herself'. Which arguably isn't justice at all, it's vigilantism at best. It was mob rule. And that's the point. for all his clever deflections and paper shields... Once he found himself obsolete, his cheer backstabbery and dickery over the years was enough to have him linched. It was no justice. It was murder. But it's still hard to argue against anyone not making an effort to stop it from happening.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]True, he was despised by everyone.  He's survived before now because he was always more useful alive than dead, but that has changed.  Bizarrely, Littlefinger was the last person in the room to realize that.  You'd think he of all people would have a better read on the room.

And it was a murder, as cold and hard as Sansa's murder of Ramsay Bolton.  Yet the music and tone of the scene suggests that the first is a worryingly dark revenge killing, but the second is a joyous triumph.[/spoiler]

Hydra009

#507
One last nitpick from Preston Jacobs:

[spoiler]Jamie being aghast at Cersei agreeing to join the Coalition but failing to honor it.

Cersei has so far:
* cheated on him (with Lancel, potentially with Euron in the future, and Moon Boy for all he knows)
* made extensive use of a torture dungeon downstairs
* blew up the Great Sept, killing a ton of innocent people and inadvertently causing the death of his son Tommen

But not wanting to honor her vow to fight an undead army, now that's a deal-breaker.

And it's odd that someone known as the Kingslayer would now hold vows in such high regard, though I suppose you could argue that his character has done a 180 since season 1.[/spoiler]

Cavebear

Spoilers are OK for me.  I never watched the show.  Never watched Dallas either.  Give me a science show or a few dvds and I'm good for the evening...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Hydra009

Quote from: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 03:38:17 PM
Spoilers are OK for me.  I never watched the show.  Never watched Dallas either.  Give me a science show or a few dvds and I'm good for the evening...
But think of all the hours watching the show, discussing the show, watching youtube reviews, discussing those reviews, reading the books, discussing the books, playing the games, etc.

Oh my god, when this series wraps up (both TV and book), I'm going to have to do some serious searching for entertainment to fill that gap.