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Game of Thrones

Started by stromboli, June 03, 2013, 11:22:51 AM

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TomFoolery

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on June 08, 2015, 05:35:06 PM
[spoiler]Fuck Show Stannis.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]An awesome example of religious fervor gone wrong that I imagine would be lost on most of the faithful, or turned into some sick adage about how Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac. [/spoiler]
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

stromboli

[spoiler] WTF spoilers?[/spoiler]

I'm blown away by Peter Dinklage. He has in many ways become the soul of the show, and his skills as an actor are astonishing. And I'm also glad Sophie Turner got a bigger role in the show than Sansa did in the book. She is presented a lot differently. I saw somewhere that GRRM has said he is done with the G of T books, but I don't know. The show has carried the story in some ways better than the books, and I would not be bothered if there were two different stories told, one in the books and one on HBO. Overall quite pleased with the show. The last episode lived up to my expectations.

TomFoolery

Quote from: stromboli on June 08, 2015, 06:04:04 PM
I would not be bothered if there were two different stories told, one in the books and one on HBO. Overall quite pleased with the show. The last episode lived up to my expectations.

I spent a lot of useless energy arguing this fact with my friends over social media last night. Same with the Walking Dead. I love the written works and the television shows in different ways, and the differences are what keeps them exciting.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Hydra009

#288
Seaon 5 Episode 9:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gC1GiSDDA

[spoiler]Apparently, Stannis' guards are dangerously incompetent.  20 men walk into camp completely undetected and set off simultaneous fires in the middle of a freakin' snowstorm.  What.  The.  Fuck.

Davos is going back to Castle Black.  Good plan, maybe?  Sounds like Stannis just needs him out of the way so...

...oh no...

...

I can't even process what's going on there.  Moving on.

Cat of the Canals has Westerosi guests.  I've gotta say, Lord Tyrell is a surprisingly astute man in financial matters.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's been pulling a Pycelle and pretending to be more of an idiot than he really is.  Great singer, too.

Ser Meryn Trant, I dub thee Ser Pedo.  I'm surprised the brothelkeeper let Arya peek at the goings on there.  I'm pretty sure she feared for Arya's safety and I'd be worried about witnesses as well, but her attempt at shooing Arya away was pretty ineffectual.  I don't know if something like that is a crime or just frowned upon, but it seems like the kind of thing that a brothelkeeper would want to keep on the downlow.  Besides, brothels tend to be pretty big on privacy, anyway.  So, letting Arya hang out there was a bit weird.

I actually liked the Dorne scene in this one.  Doran and Arienne are entertaining to watch, and I really like the setwork.  Plus, there were a couple funny moments.

"Bronn of the Blackwater.  I didn't know the Blackwater had knights"
"Just the one."

*Bronn is elbowed in the face by Areo Hotah*
"Perhaps some soup."

The fighting pits.  No Strong Belwas.  No poisoned locusts.  :( :( :(  This scene is a lot lesser for it.

I did like Tyrion's verbal sparing with Hizdar, though I've gotta say, Hizdar made better arguments than Tyrion.  The stronger man usually does win.  You see, it's all about...holy crap, did you see that?!  That dude's head came off!  And like the jilted lover that he is, Jorah throws his spear at Hiz...a Son of the Harpy?!  Unsullied, I am disappoint.  Seriously, you guys suck.  Stannis's guards are better than you at this point.  And the whole stadium erupts in Sons of the Harpy.  How will Dany and co make it out of this pickle?  Why, it's Draconis Ex Machina, here to save the day! :neutral:[/spoiler]

Hydra009

#289
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on June 08, 2015, 05:35:06 PM[spoiler]Fuck Show Stannis.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Agreed.  Granted, Show Stannis has done some horrible, horrible stuff.  He's burned lots of people and even partaken in kinslaying by having his own brother killed (though his hand was definitely forced in that situation).  But combining the two, especially when we just established his incredibly deep parental love for Shireen...

Yeah, his character definitely wouldn't do that.  Hell, Selyse wouldn't do that.  And she's as devout as they come.[/spoiler]

Shiranu

I just really don't see how people are saying what happened in episode 9 was out of character...a direct quote from the character...

[spoiler]"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice"

Stannis has ALWAYS been about doing the terrible, but necessary, things to win because he is the king; that is why he would make a good king. And for the people complaining, "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS! HOW DARE THEY DEVIATE"... George R. R. Martin told them it was going to happen, the producers were just as shocked as you were. It's Game of-fucking Thrones, people you like die... brutally. It's season 5, how do you not know this by now?[/spoiler]
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Shiranu on June 09, 2015, 01:20:05 AM
I just really don't see how people are saying what happened in episode 9 was out of character...a direct quote from the character...

[spoiler]"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice"

Stannis has ALWAYS been about doing the terrible, but necessary, things to win because he is the king; that is why he would make a good king. And for the people complaining, "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS! HOW DARE THEY DEVIATE"... George R. R. Martin told them it was going to happen, the producers were just as shocked as you were. It's Game of-fucking Thrones, people you like die... brutally. It's season 5, how do you not know this by now?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Guess i am just baffled that a man who turned away from The seven because he didn't think Gods that would let his parents die were worth praying to would have his daughter burned alive to please another one.
But you are right. Ooc it is not. However i hope things plat out differently in The books. Book stannis is one of my favorite characters, and i'd hate him if he did this. [/spoiler]
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Hydra009

#292
Quote from: Shiranu on June 09, 2015, 01:20:05 AM[spoiler]"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice"
[spoiler]Context is important.  He wasn't referring to his own child, but Eldrich Storm, his brother's bastard and no one of any importance to Stannis, and even then with reluctance.  In contrast to Storm, Shireen has been shown as being extremely important to Stannis, who heretofore has shown nothing but great affection for his daughter, even having one hell of touching scene with her showing the great lengths he'd go to secure her safety.  Is it really plausible that he'd turn his back on all of that just because of a temporary food shortage?  (Btw Stannis has dealt with food shortages before with considerably more restraint.  He just instituted a policy of eating horses.  He was nowhere even close to people.)

Also, this is the sort of thing that had Selyse in horror and scrambling to put a stop to it.  And you saw how she reacted to her own brother being burned.

And finally, when Mel first suggested sacrificing Shireen, Stannis is, quoth the wiki, "visibly shocked and disgusted by the suggestion, asking her if she has lost her mind."  But the second time, it's apparently a much more sensible request.  Utterly mystifying.

So yeah, out of character.[/spoiler]

Quote[spoiler]And for the people complaining, "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE BOOKS! HOW DARE THEY DEVIATE"
[spoiler]There has been a fair amount of deviation before without much complaint until season 5.  I mean, it's not like people were clamoring for Dick Crabb or upset that Brienne fights the Hound.  Do you think that people are actually complaining about change in general or about bad changes (changes that take away from the story - leave plotholes, screw up established characters, abort important character arcs, etc)?  I'll give you a hint.  It's almost entirely the latter.  I've seen this strawman argument crop up from time, but mostly from people who I'd assume wouldn't know any better.  It's sad to see it here as well from one who really should.  Hell, you've seen me praise some book stuff getting cut, ffs man.[/spoiler]

Shiranu

[spoiler]
QuoteContext is important.

Yes, it is. But the fact of the matter is Stannis has always been the one that, no matter how hard of choice, he will do it to reach the throne. That is who he has been the entire series. Just because he didn't say it about his daughter their does not mean he didn't mean what he said. I would be more disappointed in Stannis if he didn't show that integrity he has shown the entire series.

QuoteIs it really plausible that he'd turn his back on all of that just because of a temporary food shortage?

That is REALLY selling short the situation they are in. If they push forward, they are dead. If they fall back to Castle Black, they are dead... the Nightswatch does not have the resources to provide for themselves, much less themselves, the Wildlings AND Stannis' army.

There is nothing temporary about it... they are caught inbetween a rock and a hard place and are going to die, one way or another, without some divine intervention. That is the simple truth, and Stannis did what had to be done to save them. He has NO allies in the area, no way to start getting supplies, and is trapped in the middle of a blizzard, unable to even raid local farms for supplies. There is no escape route either, no returning home... he is deep behind enemy lines.

I'm sorry, but to stay with the theme of "context is important"... the context is Stannis is fucked without magic. He knew this, and made (for him) the greatest sacrifice possible to save his men and the chance to win the throne, which has been his thing since day one.

QuoteDo you think that people are actually complaining about change in general ...

Yes.

"Ramsey raped Sansa, now she has bruises! THE SHOW HAS GONE TOO FAR!"
"Shireen dies, that didn't happen in the book (yet, even though George R. R. Martin says it is coming)... THE SHOW HAS GONE TOO FAR!"

These are the two major outrages I have seen this season; not the complete fucking up of the Sand Snakes and making them eye candy, "mehs" over the badasses they are in the book. Not anything important... just, "How dare a sick, psychotic torture junkie rape Sansa!".

I don't see what is a strawman about saying Game of Thrones is a story of people you like dying, or becoming an asshole.[/spoiler]
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Shiranu

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on June 09, 2015, 02:32:23 AM
[spoiler]Guess i am just baffled that a man who turned away from The seven because he didn't think Gods that would let his parents die were worth praying to would have his daughter burned alive to please another one.
But you are right. Ooc it is not. However i hope things plat out differently in The books. Book stannis is one of my favorite characters, and i'd hate him if he did this. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]At the end of the day, it was the only option he had for survival. The alternative is she starves or freeze to death, along with him and the rest of his army.

It's shit, and it makes him a terrible person, but it makes him the ruler he has to be, willing to sacrifice what ever it takes.[/spoiler]
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Shiranu on June 09, 2015, 04:04:12 AM
[spoiler]At the end of the day, it was the only option he had for survival. The alternative is she starves or freeze to death, along with him and the rest of his army.

It's shit, and it makes him a terrible person, but it makes him the ruler he has to be, willing to sacrifice what ever it takes.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]i think it makes him The worst parent in The world and i'd never pledge fealty to him now. Fucker has kings blood himself; let him sacrifice his own life to save his men and family. Shireen's life was not his to sacrifice. She wasn't property to be distanced with. She was a living breathing human being with cognition. She belonged to herself. And she was betrayed by her caretaker. This wasn't 'shireens sacrifice' as i'veseen it named by others. For she wasn't willing; her cries, fear and disbelief made this abundantly clear. This was shireens murder. Nothing more[/spoiler]
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Shiranu

#296
To each their own. To me Stannis has made it clear since day one that he is willing to do what ever is necessary to regain the throne. If you supported him before, then you should have seen this coming. Even if you didn't, this was a pretty obvious scenario that would happen sooner or later.

I guess I am just cynical, because this is how I have always seen Stannis. I thought that was the appeal to him that everyone liked, that he was ruthless in his pursuit of the throne. Guess I was mistaken.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Mr.Obvious

#297
Quote from: Shiranu on June 09, 2015, 05:31:24 AM
To each their own. To me Stannis has made it clear since day one that he is willing to do what ever is necessary to regain the throne. If you supported him before, then you should have seen this coming. Even if you didn't, this was a pretty obvious scenario that would happen sooner or later.

I guess I am just cynical, because this is how I have always seen Stannis. I thought that was the appeal to him that everyone liked, that he was ruthless in his pursuit of the throne. Guess I was mistaken.

I never really supported Stannis. But I admired his character. (Still do the book-version, for now.) And even with this recent turn of events, and perhaps even more so now, he is an interesting character. Fuck him (show version), but he's a fascinating fictional character.

[spoiler]
But I liked him for a different reason before. His unyielding and fierce determination surely were characteristics that spoke to me. I also liked his stoic nature, quick mind and his stance on giving out honor and grace where earned and punishment where earned. He truly seemed to seek justice, honor and duty. But these three things are something he, in my eyes, betrayed by murdering his daughter.

What was truly marvelous about his character throughout the books and series was that he was a stoic dutybound man who struggled to do what was right in his eyes. With Davos functioning as his honorbound conscience and the luscious Melissandre being the representation of his desires. Stannis struggled to make the two connect, but found himself time and again incapable of binding the advices of Davos and Mellissandre, basically his id and superego, together. (The only time the two agreed was when he had to ride of to the wall; both to honor his duty as king to protect the realm as his desire to be hailed and accepted as the king by  the realm.)

But often, he chose his conscience over his own desires. For example; in the books it was clear, if I remember correctly, that he informed Davos about the Storms bastard. He was hoping Davos to get the boy out of his reach and was, without saying it, obviously releaved that Davos had smuggled him out. (The show did this a little bit less well.) But despite the fact that Davos, his conscience kept him on a straight path, he couldn't get rid of Melissandre, his desires. And he submitted to them on occasion.

But this transgression is one too far. He got rid of Davos, his conscience, deliberatly and steeled his heart to give into his own desires. It's not out of character and yes; it's fitting in the world of 'A song of Ice and Fire', but it's sad to see a character you like make himself irredeemable. And to me, he is irredeemable. Kind of like Jaime or Theon. Many people have forgiven them for the horrible acts they inflicted on children early on and state they've repented enough. But they'll never be redeemed in my eyes. I was glad to hear 'show-Theon' state that he thought he deserved Ramsay's treatment for what he'd done. But he's still not redeemed to me. I enjoy Jaime's scenes and chapters; they're great fun. But I'll never excuse him for pushing Bran out of a window. And perhaps Stannis will wind up slaying Melissandre and dying in a heroïc fashion to save a carriage full of children from being tossed off a cliff, but I'd never support a man that burned his own child alive. And I think the man who he was before, the man that cut off  Davos' fingers and made him a knight because a good deed doesn't wash out the bad nor does the bad tarnish the good, would've understood that.
[/spoiler]

Sorry for the rant but... predictable or not. Fitting of his character or not. This hit hard.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Hydra009

#298
Quote from: Shiranu on June 09, 2015, 04:03:02 AM[spoiler]That is REALLY selling short the situation they are in. If they push forward, they are dead. If they fall back to Castle Black, they are dead... the Nightswatch does not have the resources to provide for themselves, much less themselves, the Wildlings AND Stannis' army.

There is nothing temporary about it... they are caught inbetween a rock and a hard place and are going to die, one way or another, without some divine intervention. That is the simple truth, and Stannis did what had to be done to save them. He has NO allies in the area, no way to start getting supplies, and is trapped in the middle of a blizzard, unable to even raid local farms for supplies. There is no escape route either, no returning home... he is deep behind enemy lines.
[spoiler]The Show situation does not appear to be that desperate.  There is some snow, but they don't appear to be snowed in quite yet (else how could the Bolton bastard reach them), some men are hungry and cold, but they haven't resorted to cannibalism.  We haven't even begun to see things even get close to Book desperation yet, and as desperate as that was, book Stannis managed to deal with that without losing his humanity.  And according to the map in the TV version, they're right next to a lake they could fish for some food.  And yes, the locals to consider as well.  Lots of other choices are available, as Davos would helpfully point out were he there.[/spoiler]

Quote[spoiler]Yes.

"Ramsey raped Sansa, now she has bruises! THE SHOW HAS GONE TOO FAR!"
"Shireen dies, that didn't happen in the book (yet, even though George R. R. Martin says it is coming)... THE SHOW HAS GONE TOO FAR!"

These are the two major outrages I have seen this season; not the complete fucking up of the Sand Snakes and making them eye candy, "mehs" over the badasses they are in the book. Not anything important... just, "How dare a sick, psychotic torture junkie rape Sansa!".
[spoiler]The Sansa stuff was SJW-manufactured outrage apparently trying to shame show writers for daring to show rape, even though it's clearly depicted as heinous.  Though they seemed curiously tolerant of similarly horrible things happening to male characters.  Very selective offense.  Rest assured, they don't represent the fandom, and certainly don't represent me.

And over at r/gameofthrones, the TV Sand Snakes certainly got plenty of flak.[/spoiler]

QuoteI don't see what is a strawman about saying Game of Thrones is a story of people you like dying, or becoming an asshole.
It's a story about a lot of things.  Fire and Ice.  Villainy and heroism, though characters are mostly shades of gray.  Not every character necessarily has to become a monster or die.  Such a show would have few fans, except perhaps fans of the White Walkers.  The charm of the show is that many of the prime characters neither give up nor give in, even under intense strain, and are adored by their respective fans because of it.

Shiranu

That was painful. Probably the most painful episode I can remember, but to be fair it's been awhile since I saw the Red Wedding...
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur