Aetna Leaving Obama Care

[trdsf]

See, this is why I believe basic health care should just be provided as a human right, not as a privilege -- as long as a corporation is looking to profit from it, they are going to put their profit motives ahead of the consumer's health needs.

[chill98]

See, this is why I believe basic health care should just be provided as a human right, not as a privilege -- as long as a corporation is looking to profit from it, they are going to put their profit motives ahead of the consumer's health needs.

OK define basic health care.

[trdsf]

  OK define basic health care.

This is a bullshit question.  How about just being able to have an emergency appendectomy or get treated for cancer without having to sell everything and then go bankrupt anyway, or just see a fucking doctor in the first place so maybe major medical action later doesn't become necessary?  I'm sick to the fucking teeth of people pretending that's a serious objection to universal health care.  If you have a serious pain in your chest, are you really going to stop and ask if that's a basic medical problem, or are you going to go to the emergency room?  If you can't walk without a limp, are you going to question if it's medically necessary to get that checked out, or are you going to make an appointment with your GP?

Personally, I'm satisfied with that which is determined medically necessary by a doctor.  So, a boob job for the sake of having 40Es, not so much.  Post-mastectomy reconstructive surgery, sure.

Also, advertising prescription drugs should be banned.  The general public does not have a background in pharmacology and has no business making prescription decisions -- that's for the trained professionals, not the guy watching football on Monday night.  And maybe, just maybe, pharmas could lower their prices since they won't be wasting millions on advertising at people who aren't trained to make drug decisions.

[chill98]

This is a bullshit question.  How about just being able to have an emergency appendectomy or get treated for cancer without having to sell everything and then go bankrupt anyway, or just see a fucking doctor in the first place so maybe major medical action later doesn't become necessary?  I'm sick to the fucking teeth of people pretending that's a serious objection to universal health care.  If you have a serious pain in your chest, are you really going to stop and ask if that's a basic medical problem, or are you going to go to the emergency room?  If you can't walk without a limp, are you going to question if it's medically necessary to get that checked out, or are you going to make an appointment with your GP?

Personally, I'm satisfied with that which is determined medically necessary by a doctor.  So, a boob job for the sake of having 40Es, not so much.  Post-mastectomy reconstructive surgery, sure.

Its not a bs question.  Each and everything provided as 'basic medicine' costs money.  Your appendectomy example is perfect.  Why the hell does it cost so much for an operation that has been perfected many, many years ago?  And its not just me wondering these things:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cost-of-an-appendectomy-reddit-user-posts-55000-bill/

http://www.livescience.com/36277-appendicitis-medical-care-costs.html

The basic topic is Aetna (not single payer) and here's snippets from marketwatch opinion article:

1. They’re a scam. The entire health-insurance industry consists simply of taking our money â€" and then paying us back around 80 cents on the dollar, or less.

3. They waste money hand over fist. Aetna said it has lost $430 million on Obamacare plans during the first two years. During that same time the company spent $23 billion on administration, marketing, paperwork, junkets, bonuses and other overhead. That’s a ridiculous 26 cents for every dollar it paid out in actual benefits.

4. They’re booming.... Since Obamacare passed in March 2010, Aetna’s stock has rocketed 270%, with dividends reinvested.

5. They avoid sick people. The No. 1 way to make a profit in health insurance isn’t somehow to provide “better” insurance or “better” service for customers. It’s to sell health insurance to people who won’t need it.

6. They deny treatment whenever they can. It’s not malice â€" it’s math. Private health insurers only make money if they keep payouts below premiums.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/aetna-obamacare-and-health-insurers-10-dirty-secrets-2016-08-19

Now a further question for you.  Do you have any idea how much it will cost to implement single payer?  The estimates I have read vary widely. 

Obamacare did nothing to address the actual cost of healthcare in the USA.  It just shifted the burden onto people in general.  Robbing peter to pay paul; and in this case, its robbing working slobs to pay for Aetna's private jets.

[trdsf]

Its not a bs question.  Each and everything provided as 'basic medicine' costs money.  Your appendectomy example is perfect.  Why the hell does it cost so much for an operation that has been perfected many, many years ago?  And its not just me wondering these things:

No, it's bullshit.  It completely misses the point of health care and the fundamental question of whether it's a right or a privilege.

The point about the excessive cost is, however, exactly on target: my sister works for an insurance co, and the final expenses for my uncle's last stay happened to cross her desk.  If there had been no insurance, they would have billed my grandparents $89,000.  However, they were perfectly happy to accept a tenth of that from the insurer and call it even.

Clearly, the real cost is not $89,000, if they were only going to bill $8,900.  Why were my then-eightysomething grandparents expected to be liable for ten times what they ultimately charged a very profitable corporation who could have paid the full amount without a noticeable bump in their bottom line?

And this goes back to what I said about taking the profit motive out of providing health care, because it obviously gets in the way of actually providing health care.

Obamacare did nothing to address the actual cost of healthcare in the USA.  It just shifted the burden onto people in general.  Robbing peter to pay paul; and in this case, its robbing working slobs to pay for Aetna's private jets.

I'm going to defend the ADA here -- because of the ADA, I got affordable and usable medical coverage for the first time in fifteen years.  What had been offered to me by my agency (I was working as a long term temp) would have cost me a third of my pay, and wouldn't have covered a thing until I was already $5,000 out of pocket.  ADA coverage wasn't perfect, but it was a lot more affordable and a lot less restrictive on what it'd cover.

If you want to complain about Aetna's jets, the problem is for-profit medical insurance, not the ADA, and the solution is single-payer, or a public-private hybrid system where private insurers are not allowed to deny coverage.  And the ADA didn't make spend their profits on non-medical things, that was Aetna's decision.  It may not work perfectly but it's better than the Republican program of hoping people die before they're old enough to qualify for Medicare and can't be denied state coverage anymore.

[chill98]

No, it's bullshit.  It completely misses the point of health care and the fundamental question of whether it's a right or a privilege.

Again, the TOPIC was Aetna.  I just asked you to define 'basic healthcare'.  So you drifted and I followed along.  You still haven't explained how basic health care is a right.  Beyond that, how can you call it a right when you are obliged by law to pay for it?  I understand 'right of free speech' but the government doesn't demand I attend any particular 'free speech' or pay a fine (tax).  Social security tax isn't a right but this isn't that either.  Its being forced to fund a bunch of private corps - most of the time, chosen by your employer for you.   And that shitty employer offered bronze plan that the ACA requires you to take prevents you from getting a better silver plan cuz you don't qualify for the tax break/help with premiums - your employer has found one that pays 60% of the doctor bill AFTER you have met your $6600 deductable - minus 9.5% of your wage.   

The point about the excessive cost is, however, exactly on target: my sister works for an insurance co, and the final expenses for my uncle's last stay happened to cross her desk.  If there had been no insurance, they would have billed my grandparents $89,000.  However, they were perfectly happy to accept a tenth of that from the insurer and call it even.

The question is, why the hell do people need insurance to negotiate a reasonable price?  Maybe the answer is regulating the amount doctors/hospitals can charge, like a public utility. Maybe the law should be all hospitals have to print a menu of costs upfront and if I can find a same/cheaper place to get my xray, the insurance has to pay for it.  I've heard the whining about then doctors will quit.  Well fine, let 'em get jobs flipping hamburgers like the rest of us poor working slobs.

I'm going to defend the ADA here -- because of the ADA, I got affordable and usable medical coverage for the first time in fifteen years.  What had been offered to me by my agency (I was working as a long term temp) would have cost me a third of my pay, and wouldn't have covered a thing until I was already $5,000 out of pocket.  ADA coverage wasn't perfect, but it was a lot more affordable and a lot less restrictive on what it'd cover.

Your agency must be one of the exempt (under 50 employees) places.  Or your agency is trying to get around various tax rules:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/business/yourtaxes/employee-or-contractor-health-care-law-raises-stakes.html

Under the ADA, your coverage could only cost 9.56% (max) of your wage (I do not know what dependent allocation is) but could be up to $6650 deductable (max) ($12,700 family plan) to be considered 'affordable'.  And thats what my temp agency offered me last december to get in line with the ACA.  They have offices in multiple states and adding all the places together puts them over the employee limit.  In my state? nope.  In several other states they are in? Nope.  But add it all together (and ACA requires that-so they said) its over the line. Back to the avoiding obligation above, there is a hefty penalty for offering an insurance that does not meet the ACA minimum.  So if your employer is playing with the rules as outlined in the above link, the fine is something like 35K PER employee.  BUT I don't know how the ACA cost rule applies to family plans. My situation is single and I don't feel like digging out the paperwork from last year. 

If you agency does offer you ACA qualified insurance, you will have to take it.  Technically I mean. I know several people taking a chance on getting caught signed up for ACA gov sponsored health insurance because the employer type is so awful.  Simply put, they have health issues and can't afford a 20-50% (family) of their annual income in deductions (plus premium).  So where exactly did the ACA help people afford insurance?  I am talking about the majority of people who are working for some company that offers this kind of insurance. 

If you want to complain about Aetna's jets, the problem is for-profit medical insurance, not the ADA, and the solution is single-payer, or a public-private hybrid system where private insurers are not allowed to deny coverage.  And the ADA didn't make spend their profits on non-medical things, that was Aetna's decision.  It may not work perfectly but it's better than the Republican program of hoping people die before they're old enough to qualify for Medicare and can't be denied state coverage anymore.

Well, just to remind you, the topic was Aetna and it wasn't me complaining, it was market watch.  Denying coverage is exactly what made insurance work for years and years.  Just as Market watch points out.  There are people who have benefited from the ACA but I see a shitload of problems. 

I even asked you what single payer would cost because I have come up against a lot of conflicting information.  I guess you have no idea cuz you haven't looked beyond your own needs and wants.

And wtf do republicans have to do with the obamacare situation?  It was a Democratic House and Senate and President that passed this law.  It was a Democratic house/senate/president that did NOT produce a single payer system when they had the opportunity.

HOUSE:
  Democratic yea (219)
  Democratic nay (34)
  Republican nay (178)

SENATE:
  Democratic yes (58)
  Independent yes (2)
  Republican no (39)
  Republican not voting (1)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

Follow the money!  You see, I think the ACA is terrible.  You seem to be confused about what people are really getting with the actual ACA as implemented.  The only thing saving you financially is the outside-of-your-employer access.  The majority of people still cannot afford an emergency appendectomy and they have eaten a 9% wage loss. Same thing with cancer.  The 6600 dollar deductable starts all over again Jan 1st.  You couldn't afford your health insurance for 15 years and neither can the people 10-15 years younger than you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-arel/hillary-clintons-war-on-u_b_9080772.html

Hoping people died?  Not exactly:

So we can observe that for men, for example, almost 54% of the them could expect to live to age 65 if they survived to age 21, and men who attained age 65 could expect to collect Social Security benefits for almost 13 years (and the numbers are even higher for women).

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lifeexpect.html

1/2 of them would be dead before 65. Not all of them.

[trdsf]

The question is, why the hell do people need insurance to negotiate a reasonable price?  Maybe the answer is regulating the amount doctors/hospitals can charge, like a public utility. Maybe the law should be all hospitals have to print a menu of costs upfront and if I can find a same/cheaper place to get my xray, the insurance has to pay for it.  I've heard the whining about then doctors will quit.  Well fine, let 'em get jobs flipping hamburgers like the rest of us poor working slobs.

Only cogent point you've made.  The rest just tells me you weren't really interested in what I had to say.

[chill98]

Only cogent point you've made.  The rest just tells me you weren't really interested in what I had to say.

If you were able to refute my claims you would, but I think you haven't put any time into researching the various positions. 

You refuse to even recognize it was the Democrats that inflicted this TAX on households!  Worse yet if they actually get sick.  The median income for individuals is $29K.  6-9% just for premiums PLUS the 5 to 6 (to 12K family) deductible is a hell of an income hit if you are sick (5K deductible is 17% of your gross at the median individual income).  5% premium puts your liability at 22%.  9% premium puts your liability at 26% of your gross.   Household income of 52K with a $12,700 deductible is 24% of that households gross income for the year.  Fun Stuff the ACA!!

Oh and its even richer than that.  That shit insurance your employer offers you is 100% deductible at tax time for your employer.  Stuck with a 5K bill using that crap?  Well, if its less than 25% of your gross AND you do not pay it off 100% in the tax year you are claiming, you don't get to deduct it on your taxes.  You paid 10% of the bill?  Not tax deductable unless that 10% is 25% of your gross income.

Did you follow the money even?  Healthcare is approx 17% of GDP.  If they manage to lower the cost the GDP drops.  Get it yet?

[Baruch]

  OK define basic health care.

Unfortunately, that costs about $100,000 per lifetime, and the price will escalate as soon as the government is paying for it.  Most human beings don't earn that much after taxes and expenses, in their whole lifetime.  Shall we forgo eating for 60 years, to save money for health care?

Frankly I think all Americans ... but nobody else, deserves to not have to work for a living, and live the big easy ... at the expense of the non-Americans.  That is what America has been all about since Jamestown.  Get someone else to pay for our stuff.  How
does France get away with it?  They didn't pay for the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War nor the War On Adjectives.

In the last two administrations, the US gave away 22 trillion dollars of IOUs ... I hope to die before the collection agency comes to collect that.  That doesn't include health care for 7 billion people for 60 years or so each .. even if we stop having any babies.  In the end your appendectomy will be instructions to you, by Seri or Cortana, telling you how to do it on yourself.  A Soviet doctor stuck in Antarctica had to do that, pre-I-Phone ... and got a medal for it.  That is all you can afford, because iPhone and Android already own your souls.

[KUSA]

So, a boob job for the sake of having 40Es, not so much.

Where are your priorities man? Big boobs should be a right.

[aitm]

Corporations never complain when they are making money…..when they start complaining,,,,little peeps about to be shit on.