what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

[Ananta Shesha]

It's not faith if it's proven. And God most certainly is not proven. Personal experience does not qualify as proof either. I thought I had that too for a while, before I realized it was probably all in my head.

Funny what preachers tell the congregation what faith is. When I looked it up in the Bible, Hebrews 11:1 it says, now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Substance and evidence are not created by man, it is either there or it is not

In the other biblical books it goes on to explain that faith is a gift from God and not something made by man. Seems quite different from very very very strong belief to the ignorance of all other things,  doesn't it?

[Sorginak]

Funny what preachers tell the congregation what faith is. When I looked it up in the Bible, Hebrews 11:1 it says, now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Substance and evidence are not created by man, it is either there or it is not

In the other biblical books it goes on to explain that faith is a gift from God and not something made by man. Seems quite different from very very very strong belief to the ignorance of all other things,  doesn't it?

Except that god has to first be proven to be real.  Faith is needed because there is no evidence for god's existence.

If god was real, there would be no need for faith.  If god was real, everyone would believe in god and there would be no disbelief. 

[Ananta Shesha]

Well, going with the ol def of God as "source of all good" (that we inherit/embody/become as spiritual virtues, etc), then believing in God is about as useful as believing the sourse of clean water is at the top of the mountain. Completely ineffective unless you go up there and get it.

Perhaps that's what the fasting and praying was intended for...?

[Sorginak]

Well, going with the ol def of God as "source of all good" (that we inherit/embody/become as spiritual virtues, etc), then believing in God is about as useful as believing the sourse of clean water is at the top of the mountain. Completely ineffective unless you go up there and get it.

Perhaps that's what the fasting and praying was intended for...?

Fasting and praying leads to hallucinations due to not remaining nutritionally sane.

It is no different than what Native Americans, Shamans, etc, do.

Deprive the body of its necessities and one experiences the precise same thing as one who uses drugs.

Go figure.

[Ananta Shesha]

Fasting and praying leads to hallucinations due to not remaining nutritionally sane.

It is no different than what Native Americans, Shamans, etc, do.

Deprive the body of its necessities and one experiences the precise same thing as one who uses drugs.

Go figure.

Makes sense.

I also see the minds capcity to become entrained in both paradigm and perception. Ceasing the patterns of "worldly" interaction would be the first step in coming out of a type of mental hypnosis that we are born wide open into.

The human vehicle has co-evolved with nature and psychedelics likely played a major role in man's mental/creative development. Current research is being done on how psyllocibin hyper connects brain regions that don't normally cross communicate...because our brains learn to compartmentlise information.

One feels a sense of deep connection because the experience is at the root of mans departture from pure animal intellect. It's in our DNA.

Just a thought :)

[Baruch]

Funny what preachers tell the congregation what faith is. When I looked it up in the Bible, Hebrews 11:1 it says, now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Substance and evidence are not created by man, it is either there or it is not

In the other biblical books it goes on to explain that faith is a gift from God and not something made by man. Seems quite different from very very very strong belief to the ignorance of all other things,  doesn't it?

Due to translation fails, the Bible in English is mostly wrong.  Faith= Fides = trustworthiness.  Faith has to do with the characteristics of another person ... are they a used car dealer or not.  If you have faith in a used car dealer, you are a dupe.  It isn't Jewish to trust used car dealers.  However ... what the Bible passages are talking about, is the future, and the so called invisibility of G-d.  For most people G-d is invisible, though G-d is right in front of you.  This is a people problem, not a G-d problem.  Also modern people don't understand the ancient view of time.  To moderns, we look forward ... but ancients looked back.  They saw G-d as the past, not the future.  And to them G-d in history was tautological ... what has happened, and thus can't be changed is destiny.  Destiny isn't in the future, it is in the past.  So ... there is a bit of tongue in cheek in the Bible verses ... that are not obvious to moderns, that and the language is bogus.  You have to read the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.  Not that I expect believers to do that, let alone atheists.

[Baruch]

Well, going with the ol def of God as "source of all good" (that we inherit/embody/become as spiritual virtues, etc), then believing in God is about as useful as believing the sourse of clean water is at the top of the mountain. Completely ineffective unless you go up there and get it.

Perhaps that's what the fasting and praying was intended for...?

Fasting and praying are purgatives.  You have to realize you are full of shit, before you think you need a Ducolax.

[Baruch]

Makes sense.

I also see the minds capcity to become entrained in both paradigm and perception. Ceasing the patterns of "worldly" interaction would be the first step in coming out of a type of mental hypnosis that we are born wide open into.

The human vehicle has co-evolved with nature and psychedelics likely played a major role in man's mental/creative development. Current research is being done on how psyllocibin hyper connects brain regions that don't normally cross communicate...because our brains learn to compartmentlise information.

One feels a sense of deep connection because the experience is at the root of mans departture from pure animal intellect. It's in our DNA.

Just a thought :)

Already I can tell you know ... about the Matrix.  Why are you still here, Neo?

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Ok, here's what will convince me of a god.. Trump has massive heart attack and dies then immediately borrows into the ground straight to hell. 

[Ananta Shesha]

Except that god has to first be proven to be real.  Faith is needed because there is no evidence for god's existence.

If god was real, there would be no need for faith.  If god was real, everyone would believe in god and there would be no disbelief.

Real is real whether proven or not.

You're still using the modern (bastardized) version of faith which is no different from man made belief. Unfortunately believers have made this their ignorance blanket.

Gotta go old school for usage., Ephesians 2:8 states we are saved by grace through faith, it is not of our own doing, it is a gift of God. Of, not from. A gift of gold is very different from a gift from gold.

The proof is a personal revelatory experience of God. That is the authoring of faith.
I see a three step evolution of mind, first there is believing, then comes knowing, then comes doing.

[aitm]

Real is real whether proven or not.

I see a three step evolution of mind, first there is believing, then comes knowing, then comes doing.

Almost cyclical, first is believing, then convincing yourself that you know what you believe to be true and finally that your belief has been proven to you sufficiently to be considered true....so real is real whether proven or not. I think we have facilities complete with staff ,medications and high fences for people of similar mindsets.

[Ananta Shesha]

Due to translation fails, the Bible in English is mostly wrong.  Faith= Fides = trustworthiness.  Faith has to do with the characteristics of another person ... are they a used car dealer or not.  If you have faith in a used car dealer, you are a dupe.  It isn't Jewish to trust used car dealers.  However ... what the Bible passages are talking about, is the future, and the so called invisibility of G-d.  For most people G-d is invisible, though G-d is right in front of you.  This is a people problem, not a G-d problem.  Also modern people don't understand the ancient view of time.  To moderns, we look forward ... but ancients looked back.  They saw G-d as the past, not the future.  And to them G-d in history was tautological ... what has happened, and thus can't be changed is destiny.  Destiny isn't in the future, it is in the past.  So ... there is a bit of tongue in cheek in the Bible verses ... that are not obvious to moderns, that and the language is bogus.  You have to read the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.  Not that I expect believers to do that, let alone atheists.

Pistis...also a rhetorical technique.

The invisible God eh? Would that be at higher or lower frequency than the visible spectrum? ;)

Brings to mind a few things: One is a quote I think from the Gospel of Thomas, "The kingdom of heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not...."  Reminds me of Amun, the Hidden One of the Egyptian pantheon. Also reminds me of one of my favorite creation stories from ancient Judaism. The story of the Ain Soph Or, the endless light of God, and the Tzimtzum or great contraction where God carved out a space in the limitless light for creation to occur and hid himself behind 10 veils.

[Ananta Shesha]

Already I can tell you know ... about the Matrix.  Why are you still here, Neo?

To fly around way too fast and dance fight with agents, why else? Besides, that protein slurry is freakin disgusting!

[Mike Cl]

Real is real whether proven or not.

You're still using the modern (bastardized) version of faith which is no different from man made belief. Unfortunately believers have made this their ignorance blanket.

Gotta go old school for usage., Ephesians 2:8 states we are saved by grace through faith, it is not of our own doing, it is a gift of God. Of, not from. A gift of gold is very different from a gift from gold.

The proof is a personal revelatory experience of God. That is the authoring of faith.
I see a three step evolution of mind, first there is believing, then comes knowing, then comes doing.

Personally, I don't give the bible any authority whatsoever.  So, trying to figure out what to do or how to act in the real world using the bible is hit-and-miss, at best.  (But yes, I have read it and even studied parts of it since it is referenced so often in this culture.)  Proof is, I agree with you on this, personal.  But that proof cannot be transferred to anybody else; sort of an unprovable proof.
And I see a three step evolution of the material in this material world.  First is the thought.  Everything material in this world was first a thought.  Then the thinker tried to make, or did make, the thought of thing.  Then the maker of said thing knows how to make that thing.  Example--someone thought of a table.  Then made a table even if it took many tries to make the table as it was thought of and then knowing; the person now knew he could make that table. 

I don't see any evidence of anything beyond the material world.  Spiritual stuff is mostly wishful thinking.  There is no soul--there is no spirit--these is nothing supernatural.

It will be interesting to see how Burach and Burach Jr. interact. :))  And I term you Burach Jr. only because he came here first.  I regard both of you as interesting and often thought provoking. 

[Baruch]

Real is real whether proven or not.

You're still using the modern (bastardized) version of faith which is no different from man made belief. Unfortunately believers have made this their ignorance blanket.

Gotta go old school for usage., Ephesians 2:8 states we are saved by grace through faith, it is not of our own doing, it is a gift of God. Of, not from. A gift of gold is very different from a gift from gold.

The proof is a personal revelatory experience of God. That is the authoring of faith.
I see a three step evolution of mind, first there is believing, then comes knowing, then comes doing.

Jewish spiritual cycle ... first pray for repentance, then repent to enable good deeds, do good deeds including a return to prayer.  Ephesians was Messianic Jewish ... Gentile Christianity didn't exist when it was written.  Of course it is important to be meek/humble ... so if you do manage to pray, repent or do good deeds, don't take credit yourself, but credit the Source.