what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

[trdsf]

Well, enough citations and obscure references to medieval French poetry and no one is going to challenge you.  I majored in Political Science.  I swear, I could have conducted a case study comparing the 1924 Grover Cleveland and Woodrow Wilson Pennsylvania primary campaigns an gotten an A+ with enough cites!

And did you have to look that up to check?  LOL!

Nope, I took my degree in Advanced Unemploym... er, Political Science as well.  :D

[Cavebear]

Nope, I took my degree in Advanced Unemploym... er, Political Science as well.  :D

LOL!  I actually ended up working in Government.  But not because of my major.  It was because they needed an additional person to keep track of the agency's desks and chairs, and I had mentioned on my application that I had managed the stock shelves at a department store.  I guess they figured that if I could count cans of oil and boxes of spark plugs, I was good to count desks and chairs. 

Worked out really well for both of us.

[trdsf]

LOL!  I actually ended up working in Government.  But not because of my major.  It was because they needed an additional person to keep track of the agency's desks and chairs, and I had mentioned on my application that I had managed the stock shelves at a department store.  I guess they figured that if I could count cans of oil and boxes of spark plugs, I was good to count desks and chairs. 

Worked out really well for both of us.

Oddly enough, I actually ran for political office once -- city council in my home town.  We had so many candidates we had to have our city's first ever primary just to clear the field a little.  There was some kerfuffle between the mayor and the city manager, the council elections were pretty much a referendum on whose side the city was on.  Ten candidates were running; we had to narrow the field to six for the three available seats.  City manager got five of his friends and family to run; the only reason one got through to the general election was because only four could lose.  As for me, I ran what could only charitably be called a lackluster campaign and came sixth of six on election day.  That was fine by me; I was perfectly happy with the three who did get elected -- the remaining candidate of the city manager didn't have enough support even from the other four who didn't make the cut to get elected.

Only time I've ever actually put my degree to practical use.  Sort of.

[SGOS]

Oddly enough, I actually ran for political office once -- city council in my home town.  We had so many candidates we had to have our city's first ever primary just to clear the field a little.  There was some kerfuffle between the mayor and the city manager, the council elections were pretty much a referendum on whose side the city was on.  Ten candidates were running; we had to narrow the field to six for the three available seats.  City manager got five of his friends and family to run; the only reason one got through to the general election was because only four could lose.  As for me, I ran what could only charitably be called a lackluster campaign and came sixth of six on election day.  That was fine by me; I was perfectly happy with the three who did get elected -- the remaining candidate of the city manager didn't have enough support even from the other four who didn't make the cut to get elected.

Only time I've ever actually put my degree to practical use.  Sort of.

Well that was a fun story, anyway.  I got involved in politics in a 501 C3 organization, so we couldn't take political sides.  We could only lobby and organize for political issues, not support candidates.  It was front line contentious environmental stuff, and a friend overhearing a phone conversation I was having one time remarked, "That's a pretty dirty puddle, you stuck your toe in."  And she was right.  It did get ugly.  It was worth it, though.  Someone has to do it.  You make friends as well as enemies, and years later, my enemies don't seem to be angry any more.  Cautious, maybe, but not angry.

[Cavebear]

Oddly enough, I actually ran for political office once -- city council in my home town.  We had so many candidates we had to have our city's first ever primary just to clear the field a little.  There was some kerfuffle between the mayor and the city manager, the council elections were pretty much a referendum on whose side the city was on.  Ten candidates were running; we had to narrow the field to six for the three available seats.  City manager got five of his friends and family to run; the only reason one got through to the general election was because only four could lose.  As for me, I ran what could only charitably be called a lackluster campaign and came sixth of six on election day.  That was fine by me; I was perfectly happy with the three who did get elected -- the remaining candidate of the city manager didn't have enough support even from the other four who didn't make the cut to get elected.

Only time I've ever actually put my degree to practical use.  Sort of.

6 of 6...  Sounds Borgian.  ;)  BTW, I once called some office idiot "9 of 7" and no one got the joke. 

I was elected Dorm Complex Senator and finally a Residence Hall Representative in college.  But then the real world intruded and I discovered that running for real offices required asking for money with both confidence and a wink.  I was terrible at both.  Otherwise, you might be talking to Senator Cavebear.

Turns out I'm more the Chief Of Staff type.  Well, OK, Assistant Chief Of Staff.  Um, District Office Manager?  Would you believe foremost of 5 angry protesters?  3 guys with small banners?  'Get Smart' anyone?

[Baruch]

I had a sorta type experience; I say 'sorta' because it is not exactly the same.  Anyway, I graduated from college with a BA in history and a C+ average.  Two weeks later I was drafted.  After 3 yrs. in the Army, came back to the same college and resumed my teacher credentialing program.  I found college much easier and had nothing less than an A in every class and for every assignment.  I surmise that prior to the Army (which did enforce some 'growup'  in me) I was not really ready for college and struggled my way thru.  After the Army I was ready and ready to learn and have an easy time of academics since.

The Vietnam War vets who were older classmates ... did the same.  I was happy with a C+ and graduate (survive).  I was too young to be in college.

[Mike Cl]

The Vietnam War vets who were older classmates ... did the same.  I was happy with a C+ and graduate (survive).  I was too young to be in college.

I have always felt that I entered the 1st grade too young.  I do wish my mom and dad had kept me back a year; I always felt that I was just emotionally too young to start.  I always felt sort of out of it and that I had to really work harder than anyone else to make an average score.  After I came back from the Army I felt that I was ready to learn and to compete with my fellow students.  And yeah, I was happy with my C+ average and my BA.

[Cavebear]

I have always felt that I entered the 1st grade too young.  I do wish my mom and dad had kept me back a year; I always felt that I was just emotionally too young to start.  I always felt sort of out of it and that I had to really work harder than anyone else to make an average score.  After I came back from the Army I felt that I was ready to learn and to compete with my fellow students.  And yeah, I was happy with my C+ average and my BA.

Being the youngest in elementary school can have a debilitating effect.  A few months of mental and physical age can make a big difference.  It shows up in all aspects of schooling; classes, playground, interactions...  Of course, even then students mature at different rates.  I went through school at a relatively normal pace, but even then, there were classmates who had to shave every day before I ever saw a single whisker.  It adds up.  And not really well for the slower-to-mature.

[Mike Cl]

Being the youngest in elementary school can have a debilitating effect.  A few months of mental and physical age can make a big difference.  It shows up in all aspects of schooling; classes, playground, interactions...  Of course, even then students mature at different rates.  I went through school at a relatively normal pace, but even then, there were classmates who had to shave every day before I ever saw a single whisker.  It adds up.  And not really well for the slower-to-mature.

My experience, exactly.

[SGOS]

I have always felt that I entered the 1st grade too young.  I do wish my mom and dad had kept me back a year; I always felt that I was just emotionally too young to start.  I always felt sort of out of it and that I had to really work harder than anyone else to make an average score.  After I came back from the Army I felt that I was ready to learn and to compete with my fellow students.  And yeah, I was happy with my C+ average and my BA.

I had the same experience.  I was born in October, and my parents told me years later that I was close enough to the enrollment date that I would be allowed to enroll that year or they could wait one more year.  They enrolled me that year, because they thought I was intelligent, and I probably was to some extent.  I was also as tall as the rest of the kids.   But I lagged behind the rest of the class.  I was in the slower reading group reading out of a book designed for the class one year younger, and my grades were mostly Cs.  The box for "needs to learn self control" was always checked on my report card, so I'm guessing I was less emotionally mature than my classmates.  I used to listen to the kids on the other side of the room that were in the regular reading group, and it seems like the stories they read were much more interesting than mine.  The next year, I would read those stories I heard others reading out loud the year before, and I was happy I could read them finally.  These things followed me into high school, where I was no longer the tallest in the class, as others were entering their growth spurt.  I was always physically behind the others, and I had little to brag about in sports.

My Sophomore year, I was identified as having a reading problem from some tests everyone had to take.  They went through IQ scores and those few that had IQ scores that were in wide disparity from their low reading scores were offered a special reading class as Juniors.  It was in place of the usual elective classes like shop and art.  The class was very small, like 10 kids, and this was in a high school of 5000.  The class paid big rewards, and I finally became a reader, which started an academic shift in my Senior year.

By this age, that one year age difference wasn't as dramatic as it was in first grade, and things started to come together academically and in sports also.  I finally learned a few study skills and habits, and my first year in college, I left all that lack luster 12 years of struggle behind me.  I now had a reason to apply myself and honestly expect some academic rewards.

I think my parents made a serious mistake with that early enrollment.  Maybe they wanted to believe they had a precocious child or maybe they just wanted me out of their hair when I was four.  In thinking about my early years of schooling, I think it hurt more than helped.  I survived, but I can't say it was a pleasant experience, and I think I could have done much better in the long run.

People like to read and write success stories about how underachievers overcome their handicap and become successful.  It maybe inspirational and all, but that handicap during the formative years helps to create an impression of ourselves that we carry for many years.  Once I got my academic shit together, I had to deal with issues of self confidence and self image, some of which I over compensated for and I became unnecessarily arrogant and probably a bit of a pain in the ass to others, as well as myself.  Getting through that shit took many more years than the years of college.

[Mike Cl]

I had the same experience.  I was born in October, and my parents told me years later that I was close enough to the enrollment date that I would be allowed to enroll that year or they could wait one more year.  They enrolled me that year, because they thought I was intelligent, and I probably was to some extent.  I was also as tall as the rest of the kids.   But I lagged behind the rest of the class.  I was in the slower reading group reading out of a book designed for the class one year younger, and my grades were mostly Cs.  The box for "needs to learn self control" was always checked on my report card, so I'm guessing I was less emotionally mature than my classmates.  I used to listen to the kids on the other side of the room that were in the regular reading group, and it seems like the stories they read were much more interesting than mine.  The next year, I would read those stories I heard others reading out loud the year before, and I was happy I could read them finally.  These things followed me into high school, where I was no longer the tallest in the class, as others were entering their growth spurt.  I was always physically behind the others, and I had little to brag about in sports.

My Sophomore year, I was identified as having a reading problem from some tests everyone had to take.  They went through IQ scores and those few that had IQ scores that were in wide disparity from their low reading scores were offered a special reading class as Juniors.  It was in place of the usual elective classes like shop and art.  The class was very small, like 10 kids, and this was in a high school of 5000.  The class paid big rewards, and I finally became a reader, which started an academic shift in my Senior year.

By this age, that one year age difference wasn't as dramatic as it was in first grade, and things started to come together academically and in sports also.  I finally learned a few study skills and habits, and my first year in college, I left all that lack luster 12 years of struggle behind me.  I now had a reason to apply myself and honestly expect some academic rewards.

I think my parents made a serious mistake with that early enrollment.  Maybe they wanted to believe they had a precocious child or maybe they just wanted me out of their hair when I was four.  In thinking about my early years of schooling, I think it hurt more than helped.  I survived, but I can't say it was a pleasant experience, and I think I could have done much better in the long run.

People like to read and write success stories about how underachievers overcome their handicap and become successful.  It maybe inspirational and all, but that handicap during the formative years helps to create an impression of ourselves that we carry for many years.  Once I got my academic shit together, I had to deal with issues of self confidence and self image, some of which I over compensated for and I became unnecessarily arrogant and probably a bit of a pain in the ass to others, as well as myself.  Getting through that shit took many more years than the years of college.

Damn, SGOS, just about a carbon copy story for me.  Except it was the Army that forced me to grow up emotionally.  And after the Army my academic improvement kicked in.  It's almost like we are long lost brothers.  Well, except I don't have any----that I know of.   

[Unbeliever]

Hell, I didn't know school was more than just another day-care place until about the fifth grade - which I skipped entirely.

[trdsf]

Being the youngest in elementary school can have a debilitating effect.  A few months of mental and physical age can make a big difference.  It shows up in all aspects of schooling; classes, playground, interactions...  Of course, even then students mature at different rates.  I went through school at a relatively normal pace, but even then, there were classmates who had to shave every day before I ever saw a single whisker.  It adds up.  And not really well for the slower-to-mature.

It did.  I started kindergarten at 4 since my birthday came before the middle of the school year, already knowing how to read (I learned when I was 2), lasted about three weeks in the first grade, and was put in the second grade before my 6th birthday.  So I hit college at the age of 16, without much in the way of either social skills or study habits (since previously I'd never needed them, everything came pretty easily).

If I take any consolation from my experience, it's that my old school district no longer skips kids a grade anymore, because of my experience.  And I understand the rule now is that you need to be 5 when kindergarten starts, not just by the middle of the school year.

[pr126]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ou7EO9F70

[Baruch]

It did.  I started kindergarten at 4 since my birthday came before the middle of the school year, already knowing how to read (I learned when I was 2), lasted about three weeks in the first grade, and was put in the second grade before my 6th birthday.  So I hit college at the age of 16, without much in the way of either social skills or study habits (since previously I'd never needed them, everything came pretty easily).

If I take any consolation from my experience, it's that my old school district no longer skips kids a grade anymore, because of my experience.  And I understand the rule now is that you need to be 5 when kindergarten starts, not just by the middle of the school year.

I had very good memory.  Never had to study, until I crashed and burned as a college freshman ;-(

PS - Professor Dennett is a follower of emanationist metaphysics.  He isn't a physicist.  And emanationism was first invented in Roman Empire times ... as a theology.  This is similar to Hegel producing secular theology from Catholic Scholastic theology.  It isn't independent of origins.  And of course, as metaphysics, isn't factual.  It is as creative an interpretation as any other philosophy.