what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

[Baruch]

Few atheists really believe that ridding the world of theists would allow mankind to build a utopia. That'll probably happen when the robots take over. Ridding the world of all religions (which is an impossible goal) would certainly make the world a better place, but without religion, dogma would still remain.

I knew you were kidding.  Cheshire Cat ... not so much.

[Drew_2017]

Just because some theist claimed morality for religion does not make it so. Inalienable rights are tied to a functioning society of empathetic social animals. It has nothing to do with god.

I'd love to ask you to explain that but I suspect the explanation would be as goofy as the assertion.

[Baruch]

I'd love to ask you to explain that but I suspect the explanation would be as goofy as the assertion.

He can quote John Locke, or Adam Smith, or some other peruke wearing escapee from the Enlightenment.  Modern Enlightenment (E O Wilson) says we are all ants, and that we should live in a hill, and serve a Queen ;-)

[Drew_2017]

author=SGOS link=topic=10576.msg1172837#msg1172837 date=1490790998]
I used unalienable rights lightly with tongue in cheek to help you get the point.  Unalienable rights implies that such a thing actually exists outside of man, which it obviously does not.  Yes it even says this in a political document kept under glass in Washington DC, a document which politicians and blind patriots glorify on par with the Bible.  Unalienable rights are human constructs.  They are invented to justify something which does not exist.

I'm confused why do you get to assert your beliefs (Something which obviously does not exist) as if they are incontrovertibly scientifically established facts whereas I can't offer an opinion we owe our existence to a Creator without offering evidence (which is summarily dismissed). What makes it so obvious other than your complete faith its true?

The Declaration of Independence was written by revolutionary zealots defying the King.  They make the claim that God has granted them rights more sovereign than anything bestowed by a King.  It helps justify their cause to themselves and those who will follow.  Their hearts were half in the right place, so I will allow them some latitude with their silly claim. 

I think they knew if they didn't attach the rights to a Creator they couldn't be unalienable. Humans can only grant each other permission we can't grant rights unless you want to deify certain humans.   

But I will use their concept as they intended to make the same point to those who want to exert control over others as part of some imagined divine birthright.  If there are unalienable rights, even if granted by divine spirit, why should a mere religion of mortals have the right to control anyone but themselves?

They shouldn't and I'm in favor of a secular government. Our form of government isn't perfect by a long shot but it is the most human rights friendly country. I assume its escaped your attention that atheistic governments tend to have an abysmal human rights record. That's because under atheism thought, there are no unalienable rights. 

[Baruch]

Drew ... so see, you are clearly a theist, who was masquerading as a cosmologist.  Not good form.

[Drew_2017]

Drew ... so see, you are clearly a theist, who was masquerading as a cosmologist.  Not good form.

I'm not responsible for your meanderings...

[Baruch]

I'm not responsible for your meanderings...

Your attempt at theism, is not up to par.  You are arguing at a blank wall, expecting it to talk back.  People who talk about, or imagine, what happened in the first three minutes of the Big Bang ... are Steven Weinberg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Three_Minutes

Worship him if you must, he has a Nobel Prize.  There is no repeatable observation of what happened in the first 300,000 years (of their estimated time since the Big Bang until the 3.5K radiation becomes visible).  And of course, no controlled experiments, except such as at the LHC ... but that isn't how the Big Bang came about (except perhaps in your theory).  Wonder how many undetectable universes have been created since the LHC went operational?

[Drew_2017]

Your attempt at theism, is not up to par.  You are arguing at a blank wall, expecting it to talk back.  People who talk about, or imagine, what happened in the first three minutes of the Big Bang ... are Steven Weinberg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Three_Minutes

Worship him if you must, he has a Nobel Prize.  There is no repeatable observation of what happened in the first 300,000 years (of their estimated time since the Big Bang until the 3.5K radiation becomes visible).  And of course, no controlled experiments, except such as at the LHC ... but that isn't how the Big Bang came about (except perhaps in your theory).  Wonder how many undetectable universes have been created since the LHC went operational?

I don't care if I'm up to whatever expectations you have created in the far recesses of your mind. I'm not responsible for your labels or edicts. I'm not here to live up to or down to your expectations. I have no idea what happened in the first three minutes nor does it matter. I draw my inference from what has obtained subsequently regardless if it meets your expectations.

[Baruch]

I don't care if I'm up to whatever expectations you have created in the far recesses of your mind. I'm not responsible for your labels or edicts. I'm not here to live up to or down to your expectations. I have no idea what happened in the first three minutes nor does it matter. I draw my inference from what has obtained subsequently regardless if it meets your expectations.

We have the same data.  We know that objective conclusions can't be made.  The materialists have their subjective and you have yours.  Both argue pointlessly as to which is more logical ... but logical isn't worth shit.  You were there and saw, or you didn't.  I am betting nobody did.  Now we can observe the here and now, and we can draw conclusions about that.  We are both theists ... I don't need 14 billion years ago ... to know.  I don't need logic either.  Just saying.  My cat sitting behind my computer, she knows.  Why don't you?

[fencerider]

yes some of the founders believed in the existence of god so what. a few of them didnt.... and it doesn't mean anything anyways. As far as I know the Declaration of Independence has no legal standing and is not a part of the law of the U.S.; its just a speach- no official inalienable rights.

Yes Drew I am curious about where the universe came from but I have no way to investigate to find out; neither does any one else; and it doesn't really make any difference in my life to know the answer. So I just don't waste time thinking about it.

I guess a twist on the OP would be to ask what would not be a good reason to believe in a god. Well the first answer to that question would be not the Bible (after seeing the errors listed at kyroot-reason#25 I have to ask what other errors are in there) because it has already been shown to be unreliable.

[Cavebear]

A system of worship of god/gods tends to be heavily related with the idea that god/gods exists.

Well, yeah, but some odd people seem to think so.  Or at least make the arguement.

[Mr.Obvious]

A system of worship of god/gods tends to be heavily related with the idea that god/gods exists.

Well, yeah, but some odd people seem to think so.  Or at least make the arguement.

I remember we had a self-defined 'cultural christian' here once.
Bloke didn't claim to believe in God but went to church, prayed, praised god and did things in name of the church because he thought it was a good institution to build a community and society around, I seem to remember.
Dude was weird.

[SGOS]

I'm confused why do you get to assert your beliefs (Something which obviously does not exist) as if they are incontrovertibly scientifically established facts whereas I can't offer an opinion we owe our existence to a Creator without offering evidence (which is summarily dismissed). What makes it so obvious other than your complete faith its true?

You are starting to glimpse the problem in drawing conclusions from nonsense.  I can't do it, and you can't do it and remain on logical ground.  See:  "Tongue in cheek"

I think they knew if they didn't attach the rights to a Creator they couldn't be unalienable. Humans can only grant each other permission we can't grant rights unless you want to deify certain humans.

Yes, and their claims of the existence of unalienable rights has always perplexed me, especially for a group trying to establish a secular government, while defying the divine birthright of a king.

I assume its escaped your attention that atheistic governments tend to have an abysmal human rights record. That's because under atheism thought, there are no unalienable rights. 

I'm well aware that some atheistic governments have had abysmal human rights records.  I'm also aware of he human rights abuses of Theocratic governments, including countries that are Christian, Islamic, and Hindu.

[Cavebear]

I remember we had a self-defined 'cultural christian' here once.
Bloke didn't claim to believe in God but went to church, prayed, praised god and did things in name of the church because he thought it was a good institution to build a community and society around, I seem to remember.
Dude was weird.

I've met them before.  Following "The Rules" gets you into heaven.  Very medieval.  But they exist.  Politicians are mostly like that. 

[Cavebear]

You are starting to glimpse the problem in drawing conclusions from nonsense.  I can't do it, and you can't do it and remain on logical ground.  See:  "Tongue in cheek"
Yes, and their claims of the existence of unalienable rights has always perplexed me, especially for a group trying to establish a secular government, while defying the divine birthright of a king.
I'm well aware that some atheistic governments have had abysmal human rights records.  I'm also aware of he human rights abuses of Theocratic governments, including countries that are Christian, Islamic, and Hindu.

That was harsh, honest, and I am in AWE!