what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

[Drew_2017]

author=Mike Cl link=topic=10576.msg1172744#msg1172744 date=1490728302]
Interesting comment.  I like where your belief has taken you.  But I have basically, the same world view as you, but without any belief system.  It matters not that nature produced humans as a happenstance.  No 'creator' needed for me.  I view humans as special and should have the right to equal opportunities--or at least fair opportunities in life.  We are not born equal in any sense.  But that does not mean some should have more 'fair' treatment or opportunities than others.  The Golden Rule, in almost all of it's forms, is an excellent way to live; and I model it as best I can.

A Creator isn't necessary to adopt beliefs about morality and human conduct. However, if a Creator doesn't exist the world is an amoral place and one can adopt whatever moral conduct they want to. Morality is just a matter of opinion. If a ruthless dictator gains power and decides to rule a country with an iron fist and enslaves the masses (like Korea for instance) we could object if we believed human rights really existed. But what right do humans who were never intended to exist and are just the accidental by products of the laws of physics have? If it's mere opinion what makes one persons opinion more valid than another? If there really are moral laws like physical laws where do they come from? No, if anything nature is the survival of the fittest. The weak are brushed aside. If we were intentionally caused to exist the universe was created for our benefit. We are technically all brothers and sisters and there is a basis for inferring we are born equal.

For me taking god or creator out of the picture reduces the number of questions I have.  If I believed in god, i'd want to know who/what created god--and so on.  If I believed in god, I'd want to know how this god could be so bumbling and bungling in it's creation; how it displays no moral or ethical fabric and a raft of other questions.  So, for me, there is no god and I don't have to try and figure out all that stuff about it.

We can always ask one further question beyond our knowledge. Aren't you just as curious where naturalistic forces came from? Did time and matter always exist? We may never even really know how the universe came to be. Its easier to be a theist than a theologian.

[Sorginak]

A Creator isn't necessary to adopt beliefs about morality and human conduct. However, if a Creator doesn't exist the world is an amoral place and one can adopt whatever moral conduct they want to.

Incorrect. 

You keep making it seem as though you are reasonable, yet then you become unreasonable in the next sentence you write.

You have serious mental issues. 

[Mike Cl]

A Creator isn't necessary to adopt beliefs about morality and human conduct. However, if a Creator doesn't exist the world is an amoral place and one can adopt whatever moral conduct they want to. Morality is just a matter of opinion. If a ruthless dictator gains power and decides to rule a country with an iron fist and enslaves the masses (like Korea for instance) we could object if we believed human rights really existed. But what right do humans who were never intended to exist and are just the accidental by products of the laws of physics have? If it's mere opinion what makes one persons opinion more valid than another? If there really are moral laws like physical laws where do they come from? No, if anything nature is the survival of the fittest. The weak are brushed aside. If we were intentionally caused to exist the universe was created for our benefit. We are technically all brothers and sisters and there is a basis for inferring we are born equal.

Yes, the world is an amoral place.  And yes, humans do adopt whatever morals and ethics they wish.  Look back on history and you will see that morals and ethics are created by and drafted by cultures.  Each culture has a different view of what is ethical or moral.  There is no authority of either morals or ethics to check in with.  Humans should have the right to fair and equal treatment just because they are born.  At least that is how I view it.  And no, there is no place where moral laws are demonstrated as the physical laws are.  But then, we know the physical 'laws' exist and work in the places we have been able to test them.  We think they are universal--but we don't know that yet. 

Survival of the fittest.  I think many people have a confused view of what that means.  It simply means that species and life forms exist when they conform best to a particular environment.  Some bacteria are fit to survive in my guts--but humans would not survive in that type of environment.  It does not mean the 'strongest'.  Strength has little to do with surviving.  In this world, it seems if life is possible it is present; life is exists in a myriad of places and environments.  A creator is not necessary for that to be so. And no, the weak are not bushed aside by nature.  Nature does not care; if a species is not able to live in a particular environment, then it dies.  Weak/strong--doesn't matter; adaptability matters.

Yes, we are all brothers and sisters; we can all be traced back to Africa and to some pretty specific areas and people.  But that does not make us equal in that we are all born the same.  We are not--not physically or mentally.  Some are handicapped to the max.  Some are not.  What we should focus on is that we should all have a fair chance to live as we wish within whatever society we happen to be born into.

The universe was not created for our benefit.  It simply just is.  And we are a byproduct of said universe.  Happenstance, all of it.

[Blackleaf]

I think you misspoke here because nothing could be a more dangerous threat to the notion of inalienable rights than atheistic belief. Speaking as an American the foundation of inalienable rights is found in the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

If we owe our existence to mindless naturalistic forces that didn't care one whit if we existed whence do any inalienable rights come from? From that belief it follows we don't have any right to live at all, we don't have any right to eat or breathe have shelter or clothes. We have no right to be free and not enslaved by anyone. Apart from that fact we can pretend we have rights and agree to it but in reality its a phantom. If rights are granted by humans...they aren't rights at all they're privileges that can be taken away. The entire notion of unalienable rights is that we are endowed with such rights from a Creator...mindless naturalistic forces can't endow us with any rights.

Just because some theist claimed morality for religion does not make it so. Inalienable rights are tied to a functioning society of empathetic social animals. It has nothing to do with god.

[Draconic Aiur]

my childhood friend to appear here and annouce she wants to be my girlfriend then takes her clothes off and fuck me

[Baruch]

Just because some theist claimed morality for religion does not make it so. Inalienable rights are tied to a functioning society of empathetic social animals. It has nothing to do with god.

You aren't describing the US, or any other country.  We are not empathetic, not functioning and have no inalienable rights.

[SGOS]

I think you misspoke here because nothing could be a more dangerous threat to the notion of inalienable rights than atheistic belief. Speaking as an American the foundation of inalienable rights is found in the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

If we owe our existence to mindless naturalistic forces that didn't care one whit if we existed whence do any inalienable rights come from?

I used unalienable rights lightly with tongue in cheek to help you get the point.  Unalienable rights implies that such a thing actually exists outside of man, which it obviously does not.  Yes it even says this in a political document kept under glass in Washington DC, a document which politicians and blind patriots glorify on par with the Bible.  Unalienable rights are human constructs.  They are invented to justify something which does not exist. 

The Declaration of Independence was written by revolutionary zealots defying the King.  They make the claim that God has granted them rights more sovereign than anything bestowed by a King.  It helps justify their cause to themselves and those who will follow.  Their hearts were half in the right place, so I will allow them some latitude with their silly claim. 

But I will use their concept as they intended to make the same point to those who want to exert control over others as part of some imagined divine birthright.  If there are unalienable rights, even if granted by divine spirit, why should a mere religion of mortals have the right to control anyone but themselves?

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Getting rid of trump and the republican party might give me pause to reconsider whether there's really a magic man in the sky or not..of course it would require an entire rewrite of history over the past decade or so.

[Blackleaf]

You aren't describing the US, or any other country.  We are not empathetic, not functioning and have no inalienable rights.

Clearly it's because we don't have enough theists. Stupid atheists keeping us away from utopia.

[Baruch]

Clearly it's because we don't have enough theists. Stupid atheists keeping us away from utopia.

That is what atheists claim.  Ugly men claim they don't get dates because the women are heartless bitches.

[SGOS]

That is what atheists claim.  Ugly men claim they don't get dates because the women are heartless bitches.

Yeah, women are only thinking of their own sexual needs.

[Draconic Aiur]

That is what atheists claim.  Ugly men claim they don't get dates because the women are heartless bitches.

Did you just calm me ugly punk? *crackles knuckles and cracks neck*

[Baruch]

Did you just calm me ugly punk? *crackles knuckles and cracks neck*

You don't look like Blackleaf to me.  You idealists (of any kind) can stuff your drug induced utopias in a pipe, and smoke them.

[Draconic Aiur]

You don't look like Blackleaf to me.  You idealists (of any kind) can stuff your drug induced utopias in a pipe, and smoke them.

*Walks toward Baruch with still cracking knuckles*

[Blackleaf]

That is what atheists claim.  Ugly men claim they don't get dates because the women are heartless bitches.

Few atheists really believe that ridding the world of theists would allow mankind to build a utopia. That'll probably happen when the robots take over. Ridding the world of all religions (which is an impossible goal) would certainly make the world a better place, but without religion, dogma would still remain.