what would be an actually good reason to believe in a god.

Started by doorknob, August 13, 2016, 02:28:20 PM

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SGOS

Quote from: Drew_2017 on March 27, 2017, 11:35:39 PM
religion is what disgusts, repulses and sickens atheists about theism over all.
What atheists oppose is thought control, oppression, and loss of liberty that is based on someone's unsupported ideological nonsense.  This occurs throughout world in the form of politics and other forms of social interaction.  Religion carries these threats to inalienable rights  much farther and insidiously weaves itself in ordinary politics.  There are smaller sideshow aspects of religion such as sanctioned pedophilia, proselytizing,  and constant glorification of nonsense and magical thinking that reach a level worthy of disgust and ridicule, but religion is just a vehicle for madmen to control and brainwash others (See: Islam and Christianity).

Theism is the basic foundation of magical thinking that religions depend on in order to flourish and spread.  Without theists, religions lose much of their control and destructive power over others.

Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on March 28, 2017, 09:06:26 AM
What atheists oppose is thought control, oppression, and loss of liberty that is based on someone's unsupported ideological nonsense.  This occurs throughout world in the form of politics and other forms of social interaction.  Religion carries these threats to inalienable rights  much farther and insidiously weaves itself in ordinary politics.  There are smaller sideshow aspects of religion such as sanctioned pedophilia, proselytizing,  and constant glorification of nonsense and magical thinking that reach a level worthy of disgust and ridicule, but religion is just a vehicle for madmen to control and brainwash others (See: Islam and Christianity).

Theism is the basic foundation of magical thinking that religions depend on in order to flourish and spread.  Without theists, religions lose much of their control and destructive power over others.

Magical thinking exists without religions.  See stock and bond market.  Animal instincts at work there.  Also some atheists are authoritarian (see Stalin).  But I suppose you only mean freethinkers who happen to be atheists.  That even I can support.  Oppression exists, because crime does pay, and pay well.  See Clintons.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Drew_2017

Quote from: Cavebear on March 28, 2017, 02:10:25 AM
You say you are not affiliated with any religion.  Yet we owe our existence to a creator...

That's inane.

Belief in the existence of God by itself isn't religious at all. You could call it a philosophical belief or a secular belief. For me personally it does have ramifications. It provides a basis to believe humans are special, that we are born equal and we aren't just the by product of naturalistic forces that didn't intend our existence. It provides a basis for the golden rule.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Mike Cl

Quote from: Drew_2017 on March 28, 2017, 02:04:46 PM
Belief in the existence of God by itself isn't religious at all. You could call it a philosophical belief or a secular belief. For me personally it does have ramifications. It provides a basis to believe humans are special, that we are born equal and we aren't just the by product of naturalistic forces that didn't intend our existence. It provides a basis for the golden rule.
Interesting comment.  I like where your belief has taken you.  But I have basically, the same world view as you, but without any belief system.  It matters not that nature produced humans as a happenstance.  No 'creator' needed for me.  I view humans as special and should have the right to equal opportunities--or at least fair opportunities in life.  We are not born equal in any sense.  But that does not mean some should have more 'fair' treatment or opportunities than others.  The Golden Rule, in almost all of it's forms, is an excellent way to live; and I model it as best I can. 

For me taking god or creator out of the picture reduces the number of questions I have.  If I believed in god, i'd want to know who/what created god--and so on.  If I believed in god, I'd want to know how this god could be so bumbling and bungling in it's creation; how it displays no moral or ethical fabric and a raft of other questions.  So, for me, there is no god and I don't have to try and figure out all that stuff about it. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Drew_2017

Quote from: SGOS on March 28, 2017, 09:06:26 AM
What atheists oppose is thought control, oppression, and loss of liberty that is based on someone's unsupported ideological nonsense.  This occurs throughout world in the form of politics and other forms of social interaction.  Religion carries these threats to inalienable rights  much farther and insidiously weaves itself in ordinary politics.  There are smaller sideshow aspects of religion such as sanctioned pedophilia, proselytizing,  and constant glorification of nonsense and magical thinking that reach a level worthy of disgust and ridicule, but religion is just a vehicle for madmen to control and brainwash others (See: Islam and Christianity).

Theism is the basic foundation of magical thinking that religions depend on in order to flourish and spread.  Without theists, religions lose much of their control and destructive power over others.

Quote from: SGOS on March 28, 2017, 09:06:26 AM
What atheists oppose is thought control, oppression, and loss of liberty that is based on someone's unsupported ideological nonsense.  This occurs throughout world in the form of politics and other forms of social interaction.  Religion carries these threats to inalienable rights  much farther and insidiously weaves itself in ordinary politics.

I think you misspoke here because nothing could be a more dangerous threat to the notion of inalienable rights than atheistic belief. Speaking as an American the foundation of inalienable rights is found in the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

If we owe our existence to mindless naturalistic forces that didn't care one whit if we existed whence do any inalienable rights come from? From that belief it follows we don't have any right to live at all, we don't have any right to eat or breathe have shelter or clothes. We have no right to be free and not enslaved by anyone. Apart from that fact we can pretend we have rights and agree to it but in reality its a phantom. If rights are granted by humans...they aren't rights at all they're privileges that can be taken away. The entire notion of unalienable rights is that we are endowed with such rights from a Creator...mindless naturalistic forces can't endow us with any rights.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on March 24, 2017, 07:09:27 AM
Sorry, I am open minded, but I am not going to "do" a unicorn ;-)  Valkyrie ... maybe ... if she will take the armor off.
Valkyries are a lot like female Klingons, I think. They too are fictional, though.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Drew_2017 on March 28, 2017, 02:04:46 PM
Belief in the existence of God by itself isn't religious at all. You could call it a philosophical belief or a secular belief. For me personally it does have ramifications. It provides a basis to believe humans are special, that we are born equal and we aren't just the by product of naturalistic forces that didn't intend our existence. It provides a basis for the golden rule.

And that is another reason to kill religion ... to establish Caligula level dictatorship.  We can't all be Caligula ... there can only be one (we hope).  Mustn't let the Roman augury say that Caligula might have an unlucky day ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Sorginak

All religions should do the smart thing by classifying themselves as mythology.

It is the direction they are inevitably headed anyway.  Fighting it is futile.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 28, 2017, 06:06:10 PM
Valkyries are a lot like female Klingons, I think. They too are fictional, though.

Like potato chips though, do you prefer smooth or with ridges ;-)  Fictional people, as projections of interior mental states, are quite real, just not in a way you can accept.  Do you accept that you are real ... figment of your own imagination?  You are just a moment-to-moment conglomeration of neural states ... no different than a dream.  Vulcans are a reflection of the geekiness of real people, Klingons are a reflection of the militancy of real people.  The people are real, so are their characteristics.  Humans project, both on each other, and onto fictions.  We also abstract (see science) ... since science starts with abstractions, does that make it fictional?  Well we can confirm in some ways, the fictions of science.  But literary fictions can be confirmed, but in a different way, by reading a book or watching a video.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Sorginak on March 28, 2017, 06:37:47 PM
All religions should do the smart thing by classifying themselves as mythology.

It is the direction they are inevitably headed anyway.  Fighting it is futile.

Correct.  Honesty is the best policy.  So which mythological person or beast are you?  Admit it, you know you want to.  I am more Dionysian than Apollonian.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Aposterioriunum

The whole reason I'm atheist is that I find no compelling reason to believe god or any gods exist. If the question is purely theoretical then I would say if I had evidence beyond the shadow of a doubt; absolute empirical evidence, then I could reconsider my position. But the god of the bible is malevolent and I still wouldn't worship him. Genocide, slavery, sexism, human and animal sacrifice... These are things promoted or supposedly done by god. You are guilty of sin as soon as you're born and the penalty is being cast into a pit of fire for all eternity unless you worship him. He set impossibly high standards that we all fall terribly short of and then penalizes us for not living up. What kind of love is that? And Christians make excuses for it. That is the definition of an abusive relationship.

Baruch

G-d is malevolent in this life, you don't have to wait for the afterlife.  In that sense, the Bible is realistic, not idealistic.  Even Jesus gets crucified.  That would happen for real, here and now, if it were real.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Aposterioriunum on March 28, 2017, 06:49:43 PM
The whole reason I'm atheist is that I find no compelling reason to believe god or any gods exist. If the question is purely theoretical then I would say if I had evidence beyond the shadow of a doubt; absolute empirical evidence, then I could reconsider my position. But the god of the bible is malevolent and I still wouldn't worship him. Genocide, slavery, sexism, human and animal sacrifice... These are things promoted or supposedly done by god. You are guilty of sin as soon as you're born and the penalty is being cast into a pit of fire for all eternity unless you worship him. He set impossibly high standards that we all fall terribly short of and then penalizes us for not living up. What kind of love is that? And Christians make excuses for it. That is the definition of an abusive relationship.

Hi! Glad to have your input!

The point, that you made well, is that God is not praiseworthy, nor could he be worshipped by any sane human, unless staying out of hell were the only consideration - which it might be, if it were real. I'd rather be tortured forever in hell than pretend to worship such a monster!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Sorginak

Quote from: Baruch on March 28, 2017, 06:42:34 PM
Correct.  Honesty is the best policy.  So which mythological person or beast are you?  Admit it, you know you want to.  I am more Dionysian than Apollonian.

I'm a decidedly male version of Gaia.

Baruch

Quote from: Sorginak on March 28, 2017, 07:03:54 PM
I'm a decidedly male version of Gaia.

So you want trees planted all over you, and animals taking a piss and a crap on you ;-)

In Egyptian mythology, the Earth is male, called Geb.  The Sky is female, called Nut.  They get together ...
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.