Who are the Racists: Conservatives or Liberals

Started by Blackleaf, August 05, 2016, 11:10:04 PM

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Blackleaf

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/934766109899579/

I found this video on Facebook the other day. The man in the video basically argues that Affirmative Action is both no longer necessary and demeaning to blacks, based on the assumption that blacks are not as capable of meeting the same standards as whites. I was raised in a Conservative family, but I've been drifting further and further away from Conservatism every year. I was prepared to laugh at the stupidity of a video that tried to shift the racist label from Conservatives to Liberals. However, this video does make some interesting points.

Personally, I think that the word "racist" is thrown around way too often these days, to the point that it means virtually nothing. It has become a word used for silencing opposition, rather than giving their opinions proper consideration. What are your thoughts?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mr.Obvious

As someone who lives in a place where it isn't as much 'conservatives vs liberals', I have to say that way you say is still recognizeable.
I've met racist 'conservatives' and racist 'progressives'. Same with sexism and whatever else you can think of.  Thing is that people who exhibit it, seemingly don't tend to recognize it within themselves. I think this is because it comes from 'the best intentions'.

That being said, I'm not a fan of Affirmative action myself.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

GSOgymrat

The man in the video says, "The irony is that those who accuse conservatives of being racist believe that blacks and other minorities are not as capable of whites at succeeding and therefore still need affirmative action almost a half century after it was first implemented." I don't think liberals believe minorities cannot succeed academically but that they still do not have the same opportunities. For example, education has become very expensive. The median household income of white and black households is $59,764 and $35,416. The unemployment rate for blacks is twice that of whites. A typical black household has accumulated less than one-tenth of the wealth of a typical white one. This makes a difference when a white kid get a private tutor and a SAT prep class and a black kid doesn't. In my opinion conservatives often underestimate how uneven the playing field actually is. I can foresee a time when Affirmative Action isn't necessary but I don't think as a society we are there yet.

Another factor in Affirmative Action is the liberal belief that diversity has benefits. Liberals tend to appreciate exposure to new and unfamiliar ideas and experiences. Most liberals don't want students selected just on test scores, where Asians outscore whites, who outscore blacks. Liberals want a cultural mix of students and therefore take a variety of criteria into consideration.

I would also add that if conservatives want to avoid being called racists they might want to reconsider when their preferred party nominates a presidential candidate like Donald Trump. Former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard David Duke is getting more support from black voters in his race than Donald Trump is in his!

As far as the term "racist", I do think in some cases it is just used as a generic pejorative, especially online. "Racist" now provokes the same anxiety that "communist" elicited in the 1950's. If someone is accused online of being a racist it could be anything from advocating white supremacy to simply being insensitive to the concerns of racial minorities.

chill98

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 05, 2016, 11:10:04 PM
Personally, I think that the word "racist" is thrown around way too often these days, to the point that it means virtually nothing. It has become a word used for silencing opposition, rather than giving their opinions proper consideration. What are your thoughts?
Agreed.   

I think it also has a negative effect on people who start believing everything that doesn't go their way is because of 'racism'.   

Nonsensei

We live in a social environment where nationally recognizable groups are claiming that everyone outside of their group is unavoidably, irrevocably X.

Fill in whatever you want for X. Racist, sexist, stupid etc.

Its the age of massive generalizations, and the rhetoric is so poisonous that no matter how logically you argue against it, your argument is simply used as evidence that you are racist, sexist etc.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

SGOS

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 06, 2016, 03:26:44 AM
Thing is that people who exhibit it, seemingly don't tend to recognize it within themselves. I think this is because it comes from 'the best intentions'.

That's mostly true for all of the other forms of bigotry too.  I think people view their own bigotry as the perception of reality that is self evident and true.  Everyone thinks their views are normal.

Baruch

All real Americans are racists.  R people are honestly racist.  D people are hypocritically racist.  Which one you support depends on how self aware you are, and whether you are more tolerant of brutal honesty or of triangulating cynicism.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hydra009

#7
The Republican party is about 89% white and the Democratic party is about 60% white.  The US as a whole is 62.6% white.  And that racial gulf doesn't just exist among voters, but also the elected officials with the Dems electing far more minority candidates (which is strange, considering that the black belt is predominantly in red states)

Even the interns are more proportional to the general population:



Okay, so there's a racial difference between the two parties.  This tells us nothing about their attitudes.  Do the Republicans hold any prejudice towards nonwhites?


Source

Okay, so there's a bit of prejudice.  No biggie.  One could argue that it's actually directed against the lower class and that "black people" was just an indelicate way of putting it.  I mean, it's not like a bunch of conservatives have praised slavery or anything.

So, to answer your question, Republicans are far more likely to hold racist views.  What a surprise.

Blackleaf

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 06, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
The Republican party is about 89% white and the Democratic party is about 60% white.  The US as a whole is 62.6% white.  And that racial gulf doesn't just exist among voters, but also the elected officials with the Dems electing far more minority candidates (which is strange, considering that the black belt is predominantly in red states)

Even the interns are more proportional to the general population:



Okay, so there's a racial difference between the two parties.  This tells us nothing about their attitudes.  Do the Republicans hold any prejudice towards nonwhites?


Source

Okay, so there's a bit of prejudice.  No biggie.  One could argue that it's actually directed against the lower class and that "black people" was just an indelicate way of putting it.  I mean, it's not like a bunch of conservatives have praised slavery or anything.

So, to answer your question, Republicans are far more likely to hold racist views.  What a surprise.

Yeah. I figured that the video was kinda reaching to prove that Liberals are the true racists. When it comes to its point on affirmative action, I could see the logic in the speaker's words. However, I doubt that most Conservatives who are against affirmative action hold their views because their deep concern for the well being of black people. Most of the ones I've heard argue against it were more concerned about white applicants being denied in favor of less qualified black applicants.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

GSOgymrat

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 06, 2016, 09:00:11 AM
We live in a social environment where nationally recognizable groups are claiming that everyone outside of their group is unavoidably, irrevocably X.

Fill in whatever you want for X. Racist, sexist, stupid etc.

Its the age of massive generalizations, and the rhetoric is so poisonous that no matter how logically you argue against it, your argument is simply used as evidence that you are racist, sexist etc.

We also are in a political phase where people focus on identity and not ideas, personality and not policy. "You are racist" isn't a valid argument against an idea. The average voter is more focused on Trump and Clinton's personal characteristics, not their policies.

Hydra009

#10
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 06, 2016, 02:34:37 PMYeah. I figured that the video was kinda reaching to prove that Liberals are the true racists. When it comes to its point on affirmative action, I could see the logic in the speaker's words. However, I doubt that most Conservatives who are against affirmative action hold their views because their deep concern for the well being of black people. Most of the ones I've heard argue against it were more concerned about white applicants being denied in favor of less qualified black applicants.
To be honest, I'm not too keen on affirmative action myself.  I hold an egalitarian/meritocratic position and think that applicants should be considered purely as individuals, not as part of a demographic quota.  But the context of affirmative action was in the early 1960s, where racist hiring practices was a huge problem.  There was definitely a need for affirmative action then.  Things have gotten better since then, but there's still some lingering racism in hiring (15.2% callbacks for black applicants vs 18% for white applicants).  Ideally, I'd like to end both affirmative action and the need for affirmative action at the same time.

Baruch

The end of college as we know it started in 2008-2009 with the financial crisis.  The false solution was the government loan expansion, that has put a generation of young people into indentured servitude (any college loan after the change to "no discharge for inability to pay" was suicide).

College will be done on-line for now on, except for the Ivy League folks.  We will be back to where we were before WW II ... but with better technology for off-campus students.  This is a good thing.  Too bad many parents didn't get the memo yet.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Nonsensei

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 06, 2016, 02:46:04 PM
We also are in a political phase where people focus on identity and not ideas, personality and not policy. "You are racist" isn't a valid argument against an idea. The average voter is more focused on Trump and Clinton's personal characteristics, not their policies.

We pay little attention to policy because we have been fooled too many times by past candidates. The voter base has been taught the hard way that campaign promises and stated policies are not to be trusted, and that once a candidate becomes president he is more likely than not to pursue whatever agenda he wishes regardless of what he promised people to get them to vote for him.

A presidential campaign is like a sales pitch. The candidate is selling you an idea, and you are paying for it with your vote. Unlike an actual monetary sale, however, this sales pitch has absolutely no rules or regulation. There are no consequences if a candidate does not live up to his promises. This encourages, if not outright requires candidates to misrepresent themselves (lie) in order to achieve the highest interest among voters.

Incidentally this mechanic is why Trump scares me less than he scares you. All of the most outrageous things he claims he will do as president are either utterly impractical or completely unconstitutional. Its clear to me hes just saying what his voter base wants to hear. I don;t know what hes really going to do as president, but there will be no wall building or mass deportation of Muslims.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

chill98

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 06, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
Okay, so there's a racial difference between the two parties.  This tells us nothing about their attitudes.  Do the Republicans hold any prejudice towards nonwhites?

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2016-01-29/racefixed.png
Source

One could argue that it's actually directed against the lower class and that "black people" was just an indelicate way of putting it. 

So, to answer your question, Republicans are far more likely to hold racist views.  What a surprise.
So I followed the yougov links to this:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/t5xd6b47t8/tabs_OP_Race_and_Class_20160125.pdf

The poll where they list the questions and answers.  Compared to the graph, I am confused as to how they determined who was a working class white vs a liberal white vs a moderate white.  Page 5 (question 6) is what I believe the graph was based on and the percents given just don't seem to represent the poll.

And nowhere do I see where they can determine via the poll questions who is a liberal democrat vs a conservative republican.

Apologies if the table I attempted does not format correctly:

6. Givers and Takers â€" Black people
For the following groups of people indicate whether you think they tend to give more to society than they take or take more than they give

- - - - - -        D         I          R     <$50k      >$50K    >$100K     W        B           H          
Give more      34%  14%   12%      23%     22%       12%      16%     45%     18%
Take more     32%  45%   65%      42%     48%        49%      50%     19%      44%
Not Sure       34%  41%   23%     35%     30%         39%      34%     36%      38%

One thing that is well represented in this particular survey is In-Group/Out-Group .  Q5 for example:

5. Givers and Takers â€" White people
For the following groups of people indicate whether you think they tend to give more to society than they take or take more than they give

- - - - - -        D          I         R         <$50K    >50K     >100K     W         B       H          
Give more      32%   39%      60%   39%        46%    50%          50%    12%   30%
Take more    36%   18%      15%      22%      22%    15%          14%     65%   34%
Not Sure       31%   43%      25%      32%     32%    35%          35%    23%   36%

So before drifting further, my question remains Can you explain to me how they came up with that graph based on the poll results?  There is no liberal vs conservative, nor middle class/working class white category to review.

Additionally, I would say the whole premise of the graphs is contingent on which opinion(s) are correct.  Do you have the answer for that; do black (or white, or hispanic) take more or give more? 


Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Baruch on August 06, 2016, 11:56:05 AM
All real Americans are racists.  R people are honestly racist.  D people are hypocritically racist.  Which one you support depends on how self aware you are, and whether you are more tolerant of brutal honesty or of triangulating cynicism.
Great thundering herds of sweeping generalizations.
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