Author Topic: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread  (Read 19718 times)

Offline stromboli

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2016, 09:23:15 AM »
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The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

Wow Reggie. Good to see you. In the Navy as a young man who grew up in Utah and had zero experience with racial issues, I saw the disparity between races. Filipinos and blacks were confined to certain specialties like Steward or Cook. I was in during the time the services had race riots. It took that for the services to get the message. Later, working for the Air Force, I saw the changes take effect- people of color finally had some opportunities and could advance.

We are in a period of upheaval much like 1962 in the U.S.. Hopefully there will be positive change. It could happen under Clinton, but never under any Republican.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 09:32:19 AM by stromboli »
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Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2016, 01:50:12 PM »
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Instead of looking at the US population ratios, try looking at the demographics of criminals.  What percentage of crime is committed by blacks compared to other race/ethnic groups?  Compare police interactions, killings, incarcerations, arrests, confrontations and so on to the percentage of criminals rather than the percentage of the overall population.  Using overall population ratios is just dishonest.  I was career military and worked private security for years myself, performing security surveys across the western states.  So what?  That's anecdotal at best.  I joined these forums when you ran the show and have a lot of respect for you, but I have to disagree with you on this one. 

Yes Jack, as discussed in the Dallas shooting thread the crime rate is higher among blacks than it is in any other demographic in the US. The question is why? The answer is complicated but high rates of poverty, poor education, breakdown of the family unit, geographic distribution and long term bias against blacks in the legal system are all contributing factors. That last one is well documented. Of the five statistics for the first four are similar between blacks and Hispanics/Latinos. Bias in the legal system is the one where the rate is significantly higher for blacks than for it is for Latinos/Hispanics. That being said it is a pretty good indicator that said bias is a major contributing factor in higher crime rates among blacks.
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2016, 03:45:47 AM »
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There is nothing wrong with the way Shiranu is using the term rate. It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics.

The rate per is a good method of comparing risk among different subsets. The statement, "The data says that black men are at  a higher risk of incarceration than white men because they are incarcerated at a higher rate." is true and includes a correct usage of the word rate.

Now let's look at the raw numbers for incarceration in the US by race. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login on December 31, 2013 there were 505,600 whites (454,100 male / 51,500 female) in state and federal prisons. There were 549,100 blacks (526,000 males / 23,100 females) in the same prisons. Please note there are more blacks in US prisons than there are whites so even by your limited definition of the term rate which limits it to raw numbers blacks are incarcerated in the US at a higher rate than whites are.

We are talking about deaths, not incarcerations..

"It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics."

Actually it isn't. The way I'm using it is.

Offline drunkenshoe

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2016, 04:09:32 AM »
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We are talking about deaths, not incarcerations..

"It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics."

Actually it isn't. The way I'm using it is.

No, we are talking about the relationship between bias and conviction regarding to the crime rate. And Pop has offered a reasonable basis about the issue in a different thread. So people here are not looking at the issue with a frame of mind 'who killed the most' but from a much wider aspect with possible causes or reasons to the high crime rate in black minority.


Either make an argument based on a reasonable explanation with citations or stop repeating the 'what I say goes'. Frankly, noone gives a fuck about home made premises.



'the wise man does not seek enlightenment, he waits for it. so while ı was waiting, it occurred to me that seeking perplexity might be more fun.’ - lu-tze

Offline doorknob

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2016, 05:51:53 PM »
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Oh? You do? ::blank sarcastic stare:: Because you ARE one of those, obviously, you must be, or else you wouldn't post these condescending words.

UM SAY WHAT? LMAO

I'm white. I've been white all my life. And my words aren't condescending in the least. Rather they are meant to be an eye opener that, the problems in the black community are very real. There also isn't any one reason behind it rather a mountain of reasons.

Offline Nonsensei

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2016, 05:56:45 PM »
Post 50 and you're arguing about what you're arguing about.

Time to pack it in.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Offline doorknob

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2016, 08:46:42 AM »
that's your opinion.

Why I waited this long to respond? because I finally got bored enough to.

Honestly I don't care about comments that attempt to silence me. I do and say what I please not as some one commands me to.

Offline Baruch

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2016, 07:16:15 PM »
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Don't recall reading any articles about white ghetto gangs. They are predominantly black and Hispanic. But their victims are predominantly black and Hispanic. As I mentioned previously one of my instructors in college grew up in a Hispanic gang environment in So Cal. He was a gang member who was mentored by a white high school teacher that saw potential in him and helped him escape his environment. The environment didn't go away, he did. There is a gang mentality among both cultures. You people don't hear local Hispanic music, not the stuff on the radio. Much of it centers around gang culture.

Much of black music and culture centers on gang related "thug life" and much of music like rap and hip hop had gang or ghetto roots. As long as there is an "us versus them" attitude across the board, as long as any percentage of Blacks or Hispanics embrace gang culture, as long as police forces recruit from middle class white sources primarily and as long as there is racial attitudes, the problems will not go away.

What Martin Luther King did was take a page out of Gandhi. somebody needs to read some MLK and start to use his methods. Blocking freeways and interrupting conventions doesn't win, perseverance  and patience does.

Like Isrealis and Palestinians, nobody, politically, is interested in non-violence.  It doesn't get votes or money contributions.  The first Intifada was peaceful, and successful, until Arafat came back and ruined it.  Both Israelis and Palestinians are invested in violence, just as White and Colored are in the US.

Zampa xiquihto.  Amo nimitzcuamachilia.
Say it again.  I don't understand you.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2016, 01:54:51 PM »

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2016, 02:10:08 PM »
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Not all whites. I don't value black people any less than any other demographic, including the ones I belong to... and I'm definitely not the only one that is like that. Blacklivesmatter hinges on the assumption that whites, for the most part don't value them equally, when in fact they do. It is not the majority of white people that value black people less than their own demographics.

Offline Mermaid

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2016, 02:15:30 PM »
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Not all whites. I don't value black people any less than any other demographic, including the ones I belong to... and I'm definitely not the only one that is like that. Blacklivesmatter hinges on the assumption that whites, for the most part don't value them equally, when in fact they do. It is not the majority of white people that value black people less than their own demographics.
True that it is not everyone, but I do not agree that whites in this country value other races equally. We are a bunch of fucking Racists. I think this is a fundamental and ugly truth. The problem will remain until we can at least agree on that much, and I don't see that happening.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2016, 05:19:09 PM »
Quote
Blacklivesmatter hinges on the assumption that whites, for the most part don't value them equally, when in fact they do. It is not the majority of white people that value black people less than their own demographics.

Herein lies (two actually) the problem; black people cannot see into our mind anymore than we can see into theirs (I say that very figuratively, that sounds like we are at all different types of people). They can only see our actions... and how many white people are actively trying to fix the problem that black people are treated as less than equal in our society? How many white people who do truly think minorities need to be treated equally actively speak out about the problem and expect their fellow whites to think the same way? How many just sit by silently and say they are all for equal rights but then do nothing when the white minority continues to hold the power and treat racial minorities as less than equal?

And how many complain about the methods that African Americans take to try to bring attention to the issue, to inconvenience white people into taking action, instead of actually addressing the issue that is being brought up?

It's like whites somehow view an attack on a society that their silence and inaction enables as a personal attack on them. It's really not, it's just a wake up call that you are a gear in a machine that systematically dehumanizes an entire group of people and that you should not be comfortable with that.

Secondly, it does not hinge on the 'fact that white people don't value them equally', it hinges on the fact that white society does not value them equally. And I think that one can almost be objectively proven true when you look at how minorities are treated by society as a whole vs how white people are treated.


Edit: The more I think about this as I am writing it, the more I wonder if alot of the misunderstanding comes from the American hyper-individualistic ideology that is almost entirely unique to our culture (and strongest in the "white", "true-American" culture). We cannot separate the idea of "society" and "self" because society as a unit is an almost completely foreign concept to us.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 05:43:17 PM by Shiranu »

Offline Mermaid

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2016, 05:45:31 PM »
I've thought about this a lot, too. I think people are by and large good and kind, and maybe I misspoke. I think you touched on something important, Shiranu. We can't see outside of ourselves. If someone says they have a certain experience, some others do their damndest to cast doubt on that, it somehow threatens them.
I am not sure it's actually malice, it's lack of empathy. Example: People who deny that black Americans have a different experience in the everyday world than white Americans. That microaggressions don't occur, because they have never seen them.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2016, 11:24:35 PM »
When a movement generalizes a demographic by something that takes up less than half of their demographic, there is bound to be a "misunderstanding". There is a lot of white people that are racist towards blacks, but it is less than half of whites.

For instance, I could start a campaign to raise awareness of how hipsters are all raging douchebags, but not all hipsters are raging douchebags. It's a minority of them. It's a big minority that includes a lot of hipsters, but it's still a minority.

It would have the same outcome:
Lots of hipsters getting angry for, as you might want to call it, "no reason" other than an american hyper individualistic mindset.

When in reality, it's hipsters realizing that, "No. most hipsters aren't raging douchebags, there are a lot of raging douchebag hipsters, but it's still only a minority"

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2016, 11:35:57 PM »
This is like how black people get angry when racist white people say "Blacks are dangerous/blacks are criminals/blacks are [insert negative stereotype here]"

And no shit, they're going to get pissed. Because it's mostly not true. Most black people are not criminals. Regardless if black people commit more crime or not. The fact remains that even with those numbers, that is only a percentage of the black community. It's not a representation of the demographic as a whole, and it's not even a representation of the demographic as a half. It's less. Way less than half. A very small percentage.

When you have people saying that white people are nasty towards black people, because it's not even a claim that represents half of the white demographic, but it's a claim that is a minority of white people. It is also racism. The roles are reversed, but it's still racism.

 

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