Author Topic: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread  (Read 3289 times)

Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2016, 01:08:56 PM »
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Don't recall reading any articles about white ghetto gangs. They are predominantly black and Hispanic.

I would reckon that's because whites don't live in the ghetto, but when they did the same accusations were thrown; that it was because they were Italian, Russian (Eastern European) or Irish and came from "violent, alcoholic, criminal cultures" that caused them to be so (not implying that is the argument you are making, rather just the one that is brought up alot).

Now it's more the trailer park where you will find white gangsters. There, or on Wall and K Street.

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Much of black music and culture centers on gang related "thug life" and much of music like rap and hip hop had gang or ghetto roots.

This is a symptom of the problem though. People make art based on what they have lived. While it contributes to the idolization of this culture, I would say the bigger issue is that people live in conditions where they can relate to this music in the first place... which a huge part of that exists outside of their control. To me this focusing on "black culture" (which is manufactured and distributed largely by white C.E.O.s, producers and label companies) as violent is a distraction from the actual issue.

And hip hop and rap do have their origins in the ghetto, but I think that is more important than you seem to make it out to be; hip hop and rap were originally very positive and a means of expressing the struggle of urban life. It wasn't until some of the West Coast gangster rap was made popular and the East Coast joined the trend that rap really had any connotations with gangs and violence.

And a huge amount of rap and hip hop still hold true to the original ideals of the music, it's just not what makes it onto the radio. Kendrick Lamar, Logic, Tupac, J. Cole, Blu & Exile, Common, Immortal Technique, Talib Kweli... I could go on, but you get the point... these are all very popular and famous artists who rap and sing about the problems within the community. I would say the majority of rap and hip hop are actually very positive songs, you just have to listen to more than the local rap channel to hear it.

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...Blocking freeways and interrupting conventions doesn't win, perseverance  and patience does.

Um... Ghandi and MLK both famously boycotted businesses and shut down parts of town to achieve their goals. That was kinda Ghandi's entire thing.
"Too curious flower, watching us pass, met death; Our hungry donkey." - Basho

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." - Mahatma Gandhi

Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2016, 01:39:27 PM »
Regardless of why there is more black and hispanic gang crime... The fact remains that there is a lot of gang related crime in the hispanic and black community and violent crimes are proportionately larger in the impoverished section of their culture, which unfortunately takes up a large portion of their populous. It's a shame that because of the harsh living circumstances and poverty they live in, they feel there is no other way to live other than being involved in gangs, but it doesn't change the fact that it does tend to happen. Likewise, while there are shitty cops that abuse their power, there are many cops that need to shoot to kill before the armed (possibly armed) suspect shoots/strikes first.

I will post this nice, neat info-graphic again for you to look at, hopefully without an overly emotional veil.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

The number of whites killed by police are 494, the number of black people is 258

Proportionately, blacks have been killed more than whites, but also proportionately, they commit more violent crime and gang crime.

Out of both of those demographics, both of the numbers include unarmed killings, which range from 30-about 40.

I guess the armed suspects that were killed should not have been shot by the police?

I'm not defending shitty cops, but saying that the problem is solely cops, is putting an emotional and irrational blinder over your eyes. The issue is complex. Too complex to just pin it on crime in the impoverished black communities and ALSO too complex to pin it on the cops that have to respond to the crime in those communities and have to be on guard when they are on post in those communities.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2016, 01:55:32 PM »
    • Do blacks commit more crimes than other races, or are they convicted of more crimes? Also, what is the rate of false convictions among blacks compared to everyone else?
    Yes, blacks commit more crimes than other races/ethnic groups in America, which lead to greater convictions.  I suspect that false arrests and convictions are higher among blacks because of bias formed due to the actual higher crime rate.  Here's something from the FBI that shows the higher crime rate - https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

    Blacks make up about 13% of the US population and are responsible for 28% of the crime.  Half of all homicides are committed by that 13% every year in the US.  Typically more than whites and non-black Hispanics combined for well over 30 years.  Check data from the FBI, DOJ, Local PD (especially in large cities) and see for yourself. 

    So as far as I can see, the premise for BLM is false since about 25% of people killed by police are black while 28% of crime is committed by blacks.  Again, close to 50% of all homicides, for decades, have been committed by blacks.

    There are countless ideas and differing opinions on why blacks commit more crime, but the fact remains that blacks do in fact commit more crime.

    Saying that, I think we need to keep all of this in perspective.  The vast majority of black Americans are good, honest, law abiding people, just as the vast majority of police are good people who do their best to be fair and just. 

    Offline doorknob

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #33 on: July 27, 2016, 02:14:10 PM »
    I'm not blaming shitty cops. I'm just saying this is a very complex matter and just to come in and say well the black hispanic population need to change it on their own is ridiculous. Yes they need to participate in the change or it can never happen. But if some one doesn't intervene on their behalf and start showing an actual effort to change on both sides then we will never have change. Children and families need a way that they can move away from the city environment so they CAN get away from so called "thug" life. There are so many factors that go into this issue it's not just a solely purely racism problem all though that is a component of it. 

    Yes there are cases where a person has helped another one escape gangs for what ever reason. We need more people like that, willing to stick their neck out and spend hard work and time helping one individual at a time. Unfortunately that is a very tall order and many people while, well meaning and wanting to help out are unable to do so. There's no one answer or straightforward solution. But we can't just shrug our shoulders and say oh well that's just the way it is. Pressure needs to be put on some one who CAN help. Not saying I know who that is rather it's more likely to be a group effort than any one entity.

    We can't advance as a society or even as a human race as long as we throw our hands up and give up. It only benefits every one to help clean up the majority of the problems. If we can clean up our own countries act then maybe we can spread and lend a helping hand to other nations. Until then we should focus mostly on our own until poverty is abolished.


    Offline PickelledEggs

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #34 on: July 27, 2016, 03:10:46 PM »
    Now see, I'd actually partially blame shitty cops.

    The unfortunate thing is, that even though both sides, the cops and the minority communities, need to work to fix the issue, a lot of the work is going to need to come from the minority communities first. The gangs and the violence and crime needs to subside first. The cops need to stop having shitty cops, but there will always be accidental deaths, even with good cops, if the crime rate doesn't decrease. There will be accidental deaths after as well, but not as much, obviously. Unfortunately it's on the black community to lower the crime rate, so cops aren't dispatched to them as much. It does need to come from both sides, but the only thing the cops can control is their shitty cops. The good cops will still make mistakes. They're only human, doing extraordinary duties and like all people, they have their slip ups.


    One of the reasons I find the #blacklivesmatter movement to be so... incorrect (is that the right word?... idk) is that one of the biggest reason for killings of black people is black people. A lot of the cops are responding to crime. The many videos we've seen in these last couple years or so of police brutality, while it is a lot of videos, it's just a small fraction of the amount of police dispatches to these communities. Meanwhile, the #blacklivesmatter crowd goes on parade chanting a call to action for killing cops? It turned toxic way too quick, which is another reason this movement needs to be put to rest. Like Jack cited, it's a very disproportionate amount of crime in the black community compared to the crime rate as a whole. Maybe before getting upset about cops being so alert in bad areas, we need to work on helping the bad areas get better. Cops only responding to the crime...
    "Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
    "I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
    "One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

    Offline PickelledEggs

    "Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
    "I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
    "One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

    Offline doorknob

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #36 on: July 27, 2016, 04:19:09 PM »
    OH no don't miss understand I don't support black lives matter. I'm just explaining why this has become such a problem.

    I'm sympathetic to the black and Hispanic communities because I've seen what they face on a day to day basis. For some one to come in and say well you are on your own you need to change it your self is a bit much. Do they need to put some effort into changing it absolutely. But they can't do it on their own. They feel overwhelmed as this is not a simple just change your self problem. This is a we need to root out the real problem at the very core of why black crime rates are so much higher than any other culture's crime rates. But it's not a one part problem.

    Do I think killing people is a solution to this problem, no. Killing fosters hatred and we definitely need less hatred and animosity between the black and white communities.

    Offline PickelledEggs

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #37 on: July 27, 2016, 06:49:21 PM »
    OH no don't miss understand I don't support black lives matter. I'm just explaining why this has become such a problem.
    I know. I read your post and was responding to the shitty cop part. The rest was for the thread in general.
    Quote
    I'm sympathetic to the black and Hispanic communities because I've seen what they face on a day to day basis. For some one to come in and say well you are on your own you need to change it your self is a bit much. Do they need to put some effort into changing it absolutely. But they can't do it on their own. They feel overwhelmed as this is not a simple just change your self problem. This is a we need to root out the real problem at the very core of why black crime rates are so much higher than any other culture's crime rates. But it's not a one part problem.
    Yes.
    I agree. Especially the part in bold.
    "Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
    "I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
    "One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

    Offline infidelguy

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #38 on: July 29, 2016, 03:27:16 PM »
    The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #39 on: July 29, 2016, 10:52:45 PM »
    I'm sympathetic to the black and Hispanic communities because I've seen what they face on a day to day basis.

    Oh? You do? ::blank sarcastic stare:: Because you ARE one of those, obviously, you must be, or else you wouldn't post these condescending words.
    It’s a strange myth that atheists have nothing to live for. It’s the opposite. We have nothing to die for. We have everything to live for.
    -- Ricky Gervais

    Listen, Big Deal, we've got a bigger problem here. Women always figure out the truth. Always.
    --Han Solo, The Force Awakens

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #40 on: July 29, 2016, 10:54:47 PM »
    The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

    REGGIE! Post more.
    It’s a strange myth that atheists have nothing to live for. It’s the opposite. We have nothing to die for. We have everything to live for.
    -- Ricky Gervais

    Listen, Big Deal, we've got a bigger problem here. Women always figure out the truth. Always.
    --Han Solo, The Force Awakens

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #41 on: July 30, 2016, 12:59:10 AM »
    The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.
    Instead of looking at the US population ratios, try looking at the demographics of criminals.  What percentage of crime is committed by blacks compared to other race/ethnic groups?  Compare police interactions, killings, incarcerations, arrests, confrontations and so on to the percentage of criminals rather than the percentage of the overall population.  Using overall population ratios is just dishonest.  I was career military and worked private security for years myself, performing security surveys across the western states.  So what?  That's anecdotal at best.  I joined these forums when you ran the show and have a lot of respect for you, but I have to disagree with you on this one. 

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #42 on: July 30, 2016, 03:15:35 AM »
    Instead of looking at the US population ratios, try looking at the demographics of criminals.  What percentage of crime is committed by blacks compared to other race/ethnic groups?  Compare police interactions, killings, incarcerations, arrests, confrontations and so on to the percentage of criminals rather than the percentage of the overall population.  Using overall population ratios is just dishonest.  I was career military and worked private security for years myself, performing security surveys across the western states.  So what?  That's anecdotal at best.

    Just an idea, here, but how about instead we actually do look at demographics. Your own idea! All respect, but I can send my white (okay, more pink) kids out into the world and only get to be a scared Mom should someone find out my son is gay.

    Not black, brown, or yellow.

    So, what do you know of skin tone unless a person of said tone tells you what they have experienced? That's why we have the BLM movement at all. Because you don't know until somebody speaks up.

    I can say that if I got pulled over for a faulty blinker (which I had for almost a year and never ever even got pulled over for -- through every state from south FL to VT), I wouldn't have been held in jail for 3 days for that even at my bitchiest, let alone died there, my kids would not be dead for playing with a toy gun in a park, etc, etc. Talk about dishonest....

    « Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 03:18:46 AM by JBCuzISaidSo »
    It’s a strange myth that atheists have nothing to live for. It’s the opposite. We have nothing to die for. We have everything to live for.
    -- Ricky Gervais

    Listen, Big Deal, we've got a bigger problem here. Women always figure out the truth. Always.
    --Han Solo, The Force Awakens

    Offline aitm

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #43 on: July 30, 2016, 07:43:53 AM »
    As a lilly white old man, I would think anyone who presented me with statistics that showed blacks people were not still getting fucked left and right would be feeding me twisted and pieced together bullshit stats. All one has to do is listen to what people still say about blacks. Even now. I don't need a report to tell me that 60% of white people are still racist. Fuck man, I live among them and hear it everyday.
    A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

    Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
    « Reply #44 on: July 30, 2016, 09:13:08 AM »
    The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

    Good one.

    The main idea has been repeated in many forms in the forum since you have left, but as realising that there is no magic dady in the sky doesn't automatically translate into being 'freethinkers' or taking issues and sources from different angles; acting like sceptics, the general outlook on the issue -not just this one- is divided by the mainstream bullshit.

    The forum has turning around in circles of white het male victimhood and how anything related to other activist groups is just bullshit related to 'regressive left' and 'liberal'  propaganda produced against this particular group. Basically a group complaining political correctness right and left and how everybody is offended by this and that but not being able to stand any bit of criticism thrown their way.

    And that felt like telling it all about to long time absent dad. :P