Author Topic: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread  (Read 5108 times)

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2016, 09:49:33 PM »
Gilgamesh, I haven't read all of your posts, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are convinced that black people are by in large criminals mostly deserving of whatever shit police and the courts throw at them and commit crimes at a far higher rate than anyone else. In other words you're naive at best and/or a bigot, but let me tell you what did happen in a courtroom I was in.  I was charged with driving with no drivers license and I was guilty. I won't dispute that.
I sat talking about our cases with a young black man, a few years younger than myself. This was before the judge entered the courtroom. We had both been charged with the same crime, no drivers license. I asked how many times he'd been arrested for driving with no license. He told me it was his first offense and his first arrest so I falsely told him he would likely be fined and get to go home at the end of the day. That had been my own experience as it was not my first time. In fact I have a pretty long history of driving with no license. By that time I would have to guess that I'd been arrested for it about 4 or five times in the past.
Finally court got underway and it was my turn to go in front of the judge and sure enough I was fined and sent on my way home, but I had to wait till after court was over to sign paperwork, etc.
Meanwhile the young man I had been speaking with went in front of the judge and without asking him any questions he was sentenced to 90 days in jail on the spot and taken in handcuffs immediately to the cells behind the court.  Same charge, less arrest record, but because he was black he got 90 days, 3 months in jail while I got to go home.
I have to admit that I was relieved, but at the same time I was outraged. I could have and should have raised issue with the judge, but I didn't and to this day I'm ashamed that I said nothing. But if you think that the system is anywhere near fair and courts treat white and black people the same you are sadly mistaken. Black people are given much longer sentences for almost all crime and often they have committed no crime at all and still get convicted and sent to jail and prison. I have many black friends and nearly all of them have been in prison at one time or another and every single one of the many black friends I have known in my life have had family members sent to prison. I can't think of a single black person I know who doesn't have at least one family member who has been to prison. Those are facts, not some made up liberal nonsense.
I've been in jail and watched guards mercilessly beat black men for no apparent reason.  It's not something just made up to make it sound like black people are given the raw deal by police and the courts and guards in jail and prison. They are given a raw deal.
All hail my new signature!

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Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2016, 09:58:07 PM »
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That literally proves what I said, you idiot. Go read my post again, but this time read what I wrote - not what you want to hear.

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Mike CI - "Blacks have always been killed at a higher rate."

You - "They have not and are not."

I'm not entirely sure how you claiming they are not killed at a higher rate is in agreement with the numbers that show they are killed at a higher rate. But by all means, inform me how that's not what you actually meant.

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Citation needed.

Fair enough, I should not have said "...while committing a crime.", which is an unnecessary remark.

I should have left it at, "Blacks are shot at a disproportionately higher rate (5 times as many) while unarmed."

If they are unarmed then they have zero reason to be shot, period. We are one of the only "civilized" county in the world who thinks giving every police officer a gun is acceptable, and when unarmed civilians are being murdered then that is an issue (regardless of race). Guns should be the absolute last resort, not the first choice as it stands. I say this both as an American who has seen it happen too often and as someone who has had an officer approach me with his hand on gun more than once (and mind you I am a "white" [biracial, white and latin] American in a family car with zero reason to be approached that way). When someone is walking towards you with his hand on a pistol, it's intimidating... uniform or not, because you know one miscommunication and you could be lying on the street in a pool of your own blood. That is not how law enforcement is suppose to work, and it shows that the cops are not interested in doing their job (which is to deescalate situations and maintain order).
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 10:08:01 PM »
Also, forgot on solutions...

Another great thing that could be done is improve and expand police-community interactions and events so that police seem part of the community rather than a separate entity from normal society. Get involved in charity work, activities with the children, stuff like that and make their positive presence in the community noticed.

This is one major trend I have seen many minority neighbourhood members say, and every time I have seen a video of police officers doing this the response always seems to be within the community, "It really gave me a new outlook on officers, made them seem more human and more a part of the community.".

When the police and the community can establish a sense of trust and comradery, a lot of the aggression police officers receive from minorities will be alleviated because they are no longer "the enemy". Unlike what that textbook definition of an Uncle Tom, Sheriff Clarke, says... treating minorities like the enemy and escalating the situation is not going to make the situation better.

Man, the more I think about that guy... he is a terrible human being, a terrible African American and a terrible police officer. I really cant believe he is the best African American the Republican party can find to speak... but I guess the actually intelligent and decent human beings wouldn't give a speech at the RNC anyways.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 10:53:16 PM »
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 11:17:27 PM »
Gilgamesh, I haven't read all of your posts, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are convinced that black people are by in large criminals mostly deserving of whatever shit police and the courts throw at them and commit crimes at a far higher rate than anyone else.
Your assumption is incorrect. I think those things about criminals. It just so happens black people can be criminals.

As for the rest: I don't care about your conjecture or anecdotes. I care about facts.

@ShiranuFC
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I'm not entirely sure how you claiming they are not killed at a higher rate is in agreement with the numbers that show they are killed at a higher rate. But by all means, inform me how that's not what you actually meant.
That's not what the numbers show. They show the opposite of that.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 11:54:11 PM »

On the numbers showing that African Americans are killed at a higher rate...


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"That's not what the numbers show. They show the opposite of that."

I'll post said numbers again so that you might read them this time.

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As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

 But because the white population is approximately five times as great as the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

 Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation's population."

About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people.

Yes, the numbers that show blacks are murdered at a higher rate proportionally shows that blacks aren't murdered at a higher rate proportionately.

Your going to have to come up with a little bit better of argument than, "nuh uh!".
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 01:32:40 AM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 02:26:29 AM »

Yes, the numbers that show blacks are murdered at a higher rate proportionally shows that blacks aren't murdered at a higher rate proportionately.

You are disingenuous. You included 'proportionally' in your last post because you became aware of your error. Own it at least, coward. White people are killed at a high rate than blacks in America. Per capita the opposite is true. Both of these facts I have purported myself, in this thread, already.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2016, 03:00:52 AM »

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You are disingenuous.

Oh? So bringing up that more whites are, in total (not at the same rate, mind you... in total), killed is not a disingenuous argument that serves only one purpose; to distract from what people actually are discussing, which is that blacks are killed at a higher rate than whites?

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You included 'proportionally' in your last post because you became aware of your error. 

I added it because you aren't grasping that proportionately is what is relevant. Yes, more whites are killed because they make up about 62% more of the population; I don't think there is a single person here who wouldn't expect that. The issue is they are killed at a higher rate than whites... that if you are black, your rate of being murdered is significantly higher than if you are white.

If your going to talk shit, at least be on the same page as everyone else. All you are doing is making an ass out of yourself because you a chapter behind what everyone else is talking about. We know whites are killed more often (barely). That's why we said the rates of blacks murdered is higher than the rate of whites murdered.

You caught up yet? Good.


And if I am wrong, go ahead and ask everyone or everyone... correct me. Perhaps I was dead wrong, and everyone here is talking about total kills rather than rates killed. I just highly doubt it, because I figure everyone here is smart enough to realise why rates are more important than total number killed.

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White people are killed at a high rate than blacks in America.

If you are talking total population, which no one here but you is. You are arguing against a position that none of us here hold, and then throwing a hissy fit that no one is arguing against it.

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Own it at least, coward.

Soon as you admit you were too busy throwing a hissy fit to realise you were yelling at arguments no one was making, I'll give that a thought.

Also, calling someone a coward on an anonymous forum? I think that insult goes a little something like this...

« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 03:04:41 AM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"There are not two sides to bigotry and there are not two sides to hatred." - Arnold Schwarzenegger

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2016, 08:41:34 AM »
I added it because you aren't grasping that proportionately is what is relevant. Yes, more whites are killed because they make up about 62% more of the population; I don't think there is a single person here who wouldn't expect that. The issue is they are killed at a higher rate than whites... that if you are black, your rate of being murdered is significantly higher than if you are white.
Look up the definition of rate. Your misunderstanding of the term is where your folly lies. Whites are, in fact, killed at a higher rate than blacks. If you choose to double down after this, I will no longer respond to you in this thread.

Offline jakeeey

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 09:26:43 AM »
Just bookmarking this for later.


:)
Get busy living or get busy dying.

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 10:01:59 AM »
Look up the definition of rate. Your misunderstanding of the term is where your folly lies. Whites are, in fact, killed at a higher rate than blacks. If you choose to double down after this, I will no longer respond to you in this thread.


There is nothing wrong with the way Shiranu is using the term rate. It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics.

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rate
(Statistics) statistics a measure of the frequency of occurrence of a given event, such as births and deaths, usually expressed as the number of times the event occurs for every thousand of the total population considered

The rate per is a good method of comparing risk among different subsets. The statement, "The data says that black men are at  a higher risk of incarceration than white men because they are incarcerated at a higher rate." is true and includes a correct usage of the word rate.

Now let's look at the raw numbers for incarceration in the US by race. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics on December 31, 2013 there were 505,600 whites (454,100 male / 51,500 female) in state and federal prisons. There were 549,100 blacks (526,000 males / 23,100 females) in the same prisons. Please note there are more blacks in US prisons than there are whites so even by your limited definition of the term rate which limits it to raw numbers blacks are incarcerated in the US at a higher rate than whites are.
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Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2016, 04:04:11 PM »
A few days ago I read an article in the BBC.  It indicated that the number of cops killed in the 70's were about 115 per year, according to the FBI count.  The last ten years had the number of about 50 per year.  The article also noted that the number of police has risen quite a bit, so a truer measure is per 100,000 police; in the 70's it was almost 25 and for the last ten years it was 7.5.  I'd say that is a substantial drop in police shot fatally while on duty. 

The article also indicated that it is impossible to know how many civilians died by being shot by the police since that stat is not kept by any agency--and the police depts. are not required to do so.  So, it is impossible to know whether or not blacks are being killed at a higher rate now or some earlier time.  I also think that people are more upset about the fact that is seems that most of the police who have shot and killed blacks lately are not held accountable; they all get off.  There does not seem to be justice; or at least, there are more than one justice system in operation. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?


Offline doorknob

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2016, 06:30:47 AM »
AS a white former drug addict I can say it's been my experience that black people are indeed treated harsher and with more discrimination. And as a white person who lived among impoverished blacks I can certainly see drastic inequities in a range of areas.

Black people are definitely given a raw deal in this country. This has been what I have personally witnessed, numbers do not matter since we can only speculate about them.

I will say that crime in the low class impoverished areas is a way of life for many. The problem is much more complex than just simple straight out racism.

Lack of education and opportunities is a major problem for inner city children. My own children were floundering in the city schools. Take them out of that environment and surprise surprise their grades went up. I also could have just about cried when I saw how many people were not prepared for a community college that even offers many support programs. This problem is deep. It does need addressing. And saying that the black community alone is responsible for changing it is ridiculous. They are unable to change anything or believe me most of them would! It's going to take some serious intervention!!! Something that rich white people are simply not real interested in doing. And middle class whether interested or not are probably not able to do it.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 06:47:24 AM by doorknob »

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2016, 11:06:08 AM »
Don't recall reading any articles about white ghetto gangs. They are predominantly black and Hispanic. But their victims are predominantly black and Hispanic. As I mentioned previously one of my instructors in college grew up in a Hispanic gang environment in So Cal. He was a gang member who was mentored by a white high school teacher that saw potential in him and helped him escape his environment. The environment didn't go away, he did. There is a gang mentality among both cultures. You people don't hear local Hispanic music, not the stuff on the radio. Much of it centers around gang culture.

Much of black music and culture centers on gang related "thug life" and much of music like rap and hip hop had gang or ghetto roots. As long as there is an "us versus them" attitude across the board, as long as any percentage of Blacks or Hispanics embrace gang culture, as long as police forces recruit from middle class white sources primarily and as long as there is racial attitudes, the problems will not go away.

What Martin Luther King did was take a page out of Gandhi. somebody needs to read some MLK and start to use his methods. Blocking freeways and interrupting conventions doesn't win, perseverance  and patience does.