Author Topic: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread  (Read 7540 times)

Offline Hijiri Byakuren (OP)

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Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« on: July 24, 2016, 11:14:31 PM »
If I'm going to need popcorn, I'd rather not have to drag it around the forum.

This is a topic that is frighteningly frequent on this forum, of late. Let's toss all the issues into a mixing bowl and see what comes out!

Questions to Consider
  • Do the actions of BLM conflict with their stated goals? If so, how?
  • Is All Lives Matter an actual movement, a "calling out your bullshit" reaction, or something else?
  • Do the poor choices of police officers/departments reflect badly on the whole profession?
  • What is your solution to the issues relating to BLM?
  • Do blacks commit more crimes than other races, or are they convicted of more crimes? Also, what is the rate of false convictions among blacks compared to everyone else?

If I think of anymore relevant questions, I'll update this post.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 09:51:36 AM by Hijiri Byakuren »

Online Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 11:40:52 PM »
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Do the actions of BLM conflict with their stated goals? If so, how?

Yes in that the actions of some BLM members conflict with their stated goals. As a whole, I have seen (and been involved in) far more good with BLM than bad; charity work, peaceful protest and drawing attention to a broken system. But like any group there are bad seeds... but just like we cant judge all (insert group here) by their bad seeds that make up a condemned minority by the majority, you cant judge BLM for the people who take their anger too far.

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Is All Lives Matter an actual movement, a "calling out your bullshit" reaction, or something else?

I think it's both an actual movement for a few bigots, and just something that people who haven't actually thought it through say because they don't realise how irrelevant it is.

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Do the poor choices of police officers/departments reflect badly on the whole profession?

If it was isolated cases that were immediately punished, no I don't think that would be fair. As it stands the average police department will cover it's own ass (as any group normally would) before admitting they did something wrong. This is "okay" when it's small things like minor corruption or not following protocol all the time... but when it is resulting in way too many minorities (and that includes lower-class whites, it's not just a race thing) being arrested and murdered with no repercussion... it hurts their image, yes.

Tell me one other business that could get away with it, even any other government branch, that blatantly does the exact opposite of what they are suppose to do (protect and serve) and faces little repercussion. Even the beloved military that Americans put above nearly anything else has had it's image ruined by it's murder of civilians.

If the military brand can be hurt by the actions of too many bad seeds left unpunished, then I think it's completely fair to judge the judicial system for too many bad seeds left unpunished as well.

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What is your solution to the issues relating to BLM?

I could probably write a 100+ page essay to this, but to make it into a few short points...

-First and foremost education and socio-economic situations of African Americans, Hispanics and "White-Trash" whites needs to be seriously addressed. The majority of people murdered by police come from low-income situations for a variety of reasons; more confrontational, forced to live in areas with higher violence so police are on higher alert, and a whole slew of other issues. If this was addressed instead of swept under the rug then I think we would see the biggest drop in police brutality out of all the solutions.

-Second, follow the example of the rest of the civilized world and take the guns out of our officer's hands and given to only specialized units and officers. The main argument I see is that everyone has a gun, so a cop must to... and yet only 42 officers were killed by guns, and that number is decreasing every year. 42 officers were killed by guns vs 1000s of minorities killed by officers. And more officers were killed in traffic accidents (50-something) than guns.

Guns only escalate the situation; when there is a guy yelling at you with a gun, that is not going to deescalate the situation. When the cop pulls his gun from the very beginning without even knowing the situation, that is not going to deescalate the encounter. When cops are shooting people with their hands up, with their backs turned... this is not deescalating the situation.

-Third, something has to be done about the culture within the police departments that believes excessive force is anything other than an absolute last resort. This is one that, frankly, the average person has no real control over other than not accepting it like large amounts of people do.



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Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 08:43:39 AM »
The 'epidemic' of police killing black people on the basis of racism cannot be shown to exist. That is; the so-called 'epidemic' doesn't exist objectively - it exists as hysteria only.


Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 09:03:43 AM »
The 'epidemic' of police killing black people on the basis of racism cannot be shown to exist. That is; the so-called 'epidemic' doesn't exist objectively - it exists as hysteria only.
According to an article published by the BBC two days ago (or so), the period from 1970 to 1980 was the highest rate of officer deaths by shooting.  They averaged 115 per year; or about 24 per 100,000 officers.  The last ten years has seen that average drop to 49 per year; or about 7.5 per 100,000 officers.  So, officers are less likely to be shot now then back in the 70's.  We know this because the FBI keeps very solid records of these kinds of things. 

But you are correct that we do not know if the shootings of black people have gone up or down--or if they have gone up or down for any group.  Why?  Because the FBI does not keep that record, nor are the various police departments required to keep those records.  We don't know if the rate has gone up down or stayed the same compared to any other period.  But to say that it exists as hysteria only is only a guess and nothing more.  I'd guess the real problem is that there is no justice for the black families that have lost members to a cop killing.  No justice in that nobody is held accountable for the shooting.  It appears to this old white guy that there is an open hunting season on blacks with the cop shooters getting off.  Which is simply a reminder that in this area for blacks it is business as usual.  Blacks have always been killed at a higher rate and that has been accepted as 'that is just the way it is'.  You were black and justice is different for you than if you were white.  That is simply a fact easily established by reading any number of history books.  Or by living through some of these incidents.  I was made aware of it as a child who moved to Alabama while the 'White' and 'Colored' signs were littered everywhere.  Made me aware of this racist shit from an early age.   I went to an all-white school via bus that passed by the one room wooden shack with a mud /dirt playground, which was deemed as separate but equal.  Alabama taught me early about the different social classes in this country.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 09:19:23 AM »
Blacks have always been killed at a higher rate

They have not and are not.

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and that has been accepted as 'that is just the way it is'. 

It's not, "just the way it is." Blacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America, therefore they are killed at a higher rate, per capita, relative to other races.


Offline Hijiri Byakuren (OP)

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Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 09:50:26 AM »
Blacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes? And do we have any statistics on their rate of false convictions compared to other colors?

I'll add this to the OP.

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 10:04:35 AM »
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes?

Yes and yes, why do they have a homicide rate 6-7 times higher than white people?

I like this black cop Sheriff Clarke - www.twitter.com/SheriffClarke

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 10:54:43 AM »
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes? And do we have any statistics on their rate of false convictions compared to other colors?

I'll add this to the OP.
It's a rigged system based on racial bias. Arrests are much higher as are convictions, but the amount of actual crime doesn't measure up. Back in the 90s i was picking up a friend to go to work,  nothing really going on, but police swept in and arrested everyone who was outside that day on "suspicion of drug activities".  From where I saw it everyone regardless whether they were just going to the store, mowing grass, whatever was arrested, myself included. Almost everyone was released later that day and had to find their way home from jail, but to say arrest equals crime is simply not true..Conviction and punishment also do not always equal actual crime.
In this country we have this notion you're innocent until proven guilty, but it doesn't really work that way. You're guilty once a cop gives you a dirty look.  Try going to jail for anything you're not guilty of..Trust me. You're guilty and treated as such from the moment the cop suspects you until you are released and all records of your arrest expunged which rarely happens. If you're arrested for ANYTHING and found not guilty there will be a paper trail of the arrest and it doesn't go away.
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Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 11:35:08 AM »


It's not, "just the way it is." Blacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America, therefore they are killed at a higher rate, per capita, relative to other races.
You are free to think as you will.  Or feel as you feel.  I don't really feel up to engaging a bigot right now. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Shiranu

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2016, 03:46:41 PM »
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They have not and are not.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-police-shootings-race-20160711-story.html

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White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times as great as the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

 Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation's population."

And, when considering shootings confined within a single race, a black person shot and killed by police is more likely to have been unarmed than a white person. About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people.

The numbers don't lie, I'm afraid.

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Blacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America, therefore they are killed at a higher rate, per capita, relative to other races.

That contradicts what you just said above, but ignoring that...

That doesn't change the fact that blacks are disproportionately shot while unarmed, while not committing a crime and are incarcerated as staggeringly higher rates for the same crimes as whites. If these things were not in the equation then you would have a point, but since the entire system targets innocent African Americans at higher rates and kills them at higher rates than anyone else then the only reasonable conclusion is that there is something working inherently wrong with the system.

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Yes and yes, why do they have a homicide rate 6-7 times higher than white people?

I'll respond to this as a response to Hi.; Yes, they have a higher homicide and crime rate because of socio-economic conditions. If you take whites ("white-trash" and hispanics (vario) (as well as some Asian communities) living in the same conditions as the average African American then you see nearly identical crime rates and issues plaguing the community.

What is important to look at is WHY are these communities lower socio-economic, and more often than not these are issues that cannot be addressed by the African American community. For one the education system is rigged so that the schools that can pay the most in taxes (affluent communities) receive the best education and those that cant (low-to-lower middle class schools) provide subpar education and less community resources. Education is directly correlated to upward economic and socio-political mobility, so the system is inherently rigged where the lower classes are at an extreme disadvantage.

Another issue is that society "accepts" that these people are different and has no desire to integrate with them, which leads to more insular cultures. This is doubly problematic due to the fact that American media basically portrays blacks as one of two things; a gangster-thug or an athlete. When you have a school system that is rigged to keep you from moving up and a media that tells you you can either be a thug or an athlete, as well as being ostracized and prejudiced against because of where you came from, it is simply not surprising that large numbers of African Americans from low socio-economic areas continue to live in low socio-economic life styles.

I'll say this; I come from a VERY low socio-economic town... you have two career choices; work in the oil fields or a gas station, or sell drugs. The school I went to, my class had about 200 students when I was a freshmen and about 25 graduated four years later. The majority of students were "white trash", and the crime rate in my town is very high. I have known several people killed in drug violence, I know only about 9 other people in my class who went to college (and all but two of them came from rich families), and I lived in the type of town where I had the "privilege" of watching an African American get dragged down Main Street tied to the back of a pickup.

I don't think the fact that they are "white trash", that the colour of the skin, made these people violent or racist anymore than I think the colour of African American's skin made them "the way they are". It's all a matter of where you were raised, what the socio-economic status of your environment is and how many tools you are provided to succeed. To try to address this problem in a few sentences of, "Meh, blacks are just violent!" and posting one or two sets of numbers ignores an absolutely mind-boggling amount of factors that go into the social conditions of any group, African or otherwise.

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I like this black cop Sheriff Clarke ...

I'm sorry?

Let's take some "brilliant" posts from his twitter...

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Fifty years of lies by Democrats caused Blacks to be blinded about their political roots. Douglas knew better.

(Image removed from quote.)

Douglas was a Republican before the Republicans became Democrats and the Democrats became Republicans... so this one is just cringe.



Implying that cops HAVE to engage in a situation aggressively, which is the exact opposite of what they are trained to do.

Calls Obama the most cop-hating prez, even though it's the Republican party that fucks over cops left and right.

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The LAST hurdle for blacks to clear for equality is to free their minds of the poisonous, debilitating brainwashing message of the DemoRats.

I just don't even. This guy is an absolute moron.
Om Mani Padme Hum

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2016, 06:49:02 PM »

That literally proves what I said, you idiot. Go read my post again, but this time read what I wrong, not what you want to
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-police-shootings-race-20160711-story.html

The numbers don't lie, I'm afraid.


That literally proves what I said, you idiot. Go read my post again, but this time read what I wrote - not what you want to hear.

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That doesn't change the fact that blacks are disproportionately shot while unarmed, while not committing a crime

Citation needed.

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and are incarcerated as staggeringly higher rates for the same crimes as whites

Actually, once every factor is controlled for, the number is almost parallel.

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2016, 07:14:51 PM »
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes? And do we have any statistics on their rate of false convictions compared to other colors?

I'll add this to the OP.

We really don't have a clue how many people have been falsely convicted. There is some data to look at though. The numbers tell us that blacks are convicted of crimes at a rate 5 to 6 times the rate for whites. In 2008 it was something like 2,200 per 100,000 for blacks compared to about 400 per 100,000 for whites.

According one group 63% of the exonerations for false convictions were black people. 30% were white people. So the data we have suggests blacks are falsely convicted a little more than twice as often as white people.

So based on the data that says blacks are convicted 5 to 6 times as often, and falsely convicted twice as often would lead me to conclude that the crime rate is higher for blacks than it is for whites.
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Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 07:15:48 PM »
Actually, once every factor is controlled for, the number is almost parallel.

As you say... Citation required.
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Offline Hijiri Byakuren (OP)

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Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 07:45:51 PM »
So based on the data that says blacks are convicted 5 to 6 times as often, and falsely convicted twice as often would lead me to conclude that the crime rate is higher for blacks than it is for whites.
It certainly leads to that suggestion, but I'd question if a solid conclusion can be reached here. Given this country's history with blacks, the data would need to somehow account for the part prejudice plays in jurors determining "reasonable doubt" before I'd be willing to say anything more decisive than, "The data suggests X, Y, and Z."

Re: Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 08:31:44 PM »
It certainly leads to that suggestion, but I'd question if a solid conclusion can be reached here. Given this country's history with blacks, the data would need to somehow account for the part prejudice plays in jurors determining "reasonable doubt" before I'd be willing to say anything more decisive than, "The data suggests X, Y, and Z."

While I have doubts about the firm numbers I think you can make a solid conclusion that crime rates are higher for blacks than they are for whites based purely on the conviction rates. The black crime rate would still be higher even if 3 out of 4 convictions of black people are false and all convictions of white people are true. While I have very little faith in the system these days there is absolutely nothing to suggest that more than 3 out of 4 convictions of black people are in error.
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