QUESTIONS WHITE MEN HAVE FOR SJWs!

Started by Hijiri Byakuren, July 15, 2016, 04:39:04 PM

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Hydra009

#30
Quote from: Mermaid on July 16, 2016, 06:42:52 AMDude. Relax. I don't care to paint you as anything, it's not about you and I have no intent of twisting anything. I don't know that we are polar opposites on this issue.
You actually have, interpreting incredulity towards a pretty bold claim first as claiming to speak for other people and second as a denial of any oppression whatsoever.  This is not a particularly subtle rephrasing of the argument as something far more objectionable than it actually is.

Hughes makes a pretty extraordinary claim.  He claims that marginalized groups (like women, minorities, and LGBT) are oppressed to the point of self-censorship and needing to form safe spaces to express themselves freely.

Naturally, as anyone with a skeptical bent would, I'm not going to just take this on faith, I'm going to question the claim that more than half the population in Western countries - including my neighbors, my coworkers, my friends - "put on masks, pretend that things don’t bother them that do, and try to follow social expectations that silence their honest views and expression of their experiences" when they're in society at large.  If true, this would be a truly massive conspiracy of silence and an honestly shocking revelation.  It would be genuinely surprising to learn that women in Sweden or gays in Canada or black people in England can't express their honest views because of social expectations.

This narrative of intense, widespread, and enduring oppression of historically marginalized groups, even in countries that now have relatively progressive laws and attitudes is an oft-repeated SJW claim that if substantiated, would lend a lot of credibility to the SJW cause.  Yet, I've never once seen this claim even attempted to be substantiated.  Instead, this is something that you're just supposed to listen and believe.  And if you express the slightest skepticism, you're a bigot.  This reaction is very familiar from my religious days and a disappointingly irrational and dogmatic approach from people who would consider themselves to be the exact opposite.

Shiranu

QuoteIf true, this would be a truly massive conspiracy of silence and an honestly shocking revelation.

I don't see how that is shocking, since literally everyone does that to some extent when in society.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Mermaid on July 15, 2016, 07:32:39 PM
It's bizarre how a person who is not a member of a certain group professes to know what life is like for members of a certain group.
Isn't that what feminism is?

GSOgymrat

#33
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 16, 2016, 12:53:04 PM
Hughes makes a pretty extraordinary claim.  He claims that marginalized groups (like women, minorities, and LGBT) are oppressed to the point of self-censorship and needing to form safe spaces to express themselves freely.

Naturally, as anyone with a skeptical bent would, I'm not going to just take this on faith, I'm going to question the claim that more than half the population in Western countries - including my neighbors, my coworkers, my friends - "put on masks, pretend that things don’t bother them that do, and try to follow social expectations that silence their honest views and expression of their experiences" when they're in society at large.  If true, this would be a truly massive conspiracy of silence and an honestly shocking revelation.  It would be genuinely surprising to learn that women in Sweden or gays in Canada or black people in England can't express their honest views because of social expectations.

Here is my take on "safe spaces." People need areas where they can come together and discuss common interests without being harassed or having to explain themselves. Support groups, churches, social clubs and forums like this one are examples. This atheist forum is moderated and although religious people participate they are banned if they are only here to proselytize or put down atheists. "Safe space" is an infantilizing term but this forum is a safe space for atheists. Based on what I have read, the problem with safe spaces on universities is that some people want classrooms, lectures and public presentations to be safe spaces for any minority. People like myself who believe in classic liberalism believe censoring ideas in classrooms, lectures and public presentations is not only unfeasible but damaging to the development of critical thought. It is self-censorship and avoidance behavior (I could go into a whole discussion as to why this trend is bad for mental health). The college classroom is a place where students should be physically safe but not safe from controversial or upsetting ideas. Do people need safe spaces? Yes. Should a college classroom be a safe space? No.


Mermaid

Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 16, 2016, 03:58:25 PM
Isn't that what feminism is?
No. I am curious as to why you'd think this.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

PickelledEggs

@GSOgymrat You bring up a good point. I do agree that safe spaces should exist. A place where ideas can be discussed without being harassed. The problem I have with safe spaces is when the idea that a conflicting view is harassment, simply because it is not a view that someone else holds. These safe spaces have turned in to a place to coddle someone's fragility and stubbornness. Other than that part, I applaud the idea of a safe space, but if it's going to be something that bullies other ideas and shunning them in to a false incorrectness, it's something that needs to be changed.

Mermaid

Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 16, 2016, 03:59:55 PM
Here is my take on "safe spaces." People need areas where they can come together and discuss common interests without being harassed or having to explain themselves. Support groups, churches, social clubs and forums like this one are examples. This atheist forum is moderated and although religious people participate they are banned if they are only here to proselytize or put down atheists. "Safe space" is an infantilizing term but this forum is a safe space for atheists. Based on what I have read, the problem with safe spaces on universities is that some people want classrooms, lectures and public presentations to be safe spaces for any minority. People like myself who believe in classic liberalism believe censoring ideas in classrooms, lectures and public presentations is not only unfeasible but damaging to the development of critical thought. It is self-censorship and avoidance behavior (I could go into a whole discussion as to why this trend is bad for mental health). The college classroom is a place where students should be physically safe but not safe from controversial or upsetting ideas. Do people need safe spaces? Yes. Should a college classroom be a safe space? No.


Erudite.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

PickelledEggs

#37
Quote from: Mermaid on July 16, 2016, 04:13:47 PM
No. I am curious as to why you'd think this.
feminsim is an ideology that (in addition that dictates how women should act), assumes, implies, and makes rules about men, how men should act, how men should conduct themselves, etc. But at the same time, if a man says "I don't do those toxic things" or points out that women do these certain things too, or any input whatsoever, for the most part, the men get bullied out of the conversation. Ganged up on. "You, as a man, cannot understand what it is like. blah blah blah."  . i.e. the objectification of women/men. (Both parties do it and it's not necessarily a bad thing to do)

It's like when that term man-splaining came along. whoever came up with that term can go fuck herself. What about how that woman, in the same article woman-splained to men? I can't even find the article because once it was coined, feminists have jumped on it and the entire internet is littered with the term. Feminists assume that men "dominate" certain industries by choice. and don't let women in. Game Devs, for instance. What about makeup artists? Do women dominate that industry by choice? do they not let men in? Certainly women have a high majority of that industry... Maybe... JUST MAYBE.... people with different hormones are drawn to different occupations?

Mermaid

#38
Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 16, 2016, 04:25:07 PM
feminsim is an ideology that assumes, implies, and makes rules about men, how men should act, how men should conduct themselves, etc. But at the same time, if a man says "I don't do those toxic things" or points out that women do these certain things too, or any input whatsoever, for the most part, the men get bullied out of the conversation. Ganged up on. "You, as a man, cannot understand what it is like. blah blah blah."  . i.e. the objectification of women/men. (Both parties do it and it's not necessarily a bad thing to do)

It's like when that term man-splaining came along. whoever came up with that term can go fuck herself. What about how that woman, in the same article woman-splained to men? I can't even find the article because once it was coined, feminists have jumped on it and the entire internet is littered with the term. Feminists assume that men "dominate" certain industries by choice. and don't let women in. Game Devs, for instance. What about makeup artists? Do women dominate that industry by choice? do they not let men in? Certainly women have a high majority of that industry... Maybe... JUST MAYBE.... people with different hormones are drawn to different occupations?

I very strongly disagree that this is what feminism is. That is most certainly not what it is to me. It's not about men doing the wrong thing or that men and women are exactly the same. It's about women having the same opportunities as men.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Mermaid on July 16, 2016, 04:27:24 PM
I very strongly disagree that this is what feminism is. That is most certainly not what it is to me. It's not about men.
can you explain what it means to you, then? Because it is very unclear due to how many current ways feminism is carried out.


Mermaid

A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Mermaid

Ah, that video is gross.

I wish we could spent a week in each others' shoes, men and women.

I want to experience what it is like to feel what men feel. I would also love for men to feel what women feel every day.

If I say that I find being hit on and catcalled threatening and scary, I am usually met with defensiveness and even anger. Why is that? Do you think it's not real?
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: Mermaid on July 16, 2016, 04:38:53 PM
If I say that I find being hit on and catcalled threatening and scary, I am usually met with defensiveness and even anger. Why is that? Do you think it's not real?
Who is getting angry at you for this? Seriously, I have never witnessed this.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Mermaid on July 16, 2016, 04:27:24 PM
I very strongly disagree that this is what feminism is. That is most certainly not what it is to me. It's not about men doing the wrong thing or that men and women are exactly the same. It's about women having the same opportunities as men.
Um... they do have the same amount of opportunities as men. Men are at a disadvantage compared to women in some jobs at the same note. Women might not be very prevalent in the game design industry, but what is holding them back? Nothing... other than their drive to. There isn't any discrimination. In addition there is the ability to publish your own game by yourself.

Same thing with movie direction. Women are not usually the directors, they're usually men. But is that really men blocking them? really? I don't think you can honestly say that.

On the other hand, men have some issues of their own. Like I said, makeup artists are primarily women. Are women blocking men? no. I just don't think men usually want to make people pretty. That is something women are drawn to, for the most part.
What about nursing? Nursing is a great job. Pays well, great benefits, way less stressful than being a full-blown doctor... women dominate that field. Are men blocked from that? No... there is still a stigma attached to men being nurses though.
What about psychologists and counselers? HR managers? Veterinarians? Education admins? Elementary School teachers?
All of these professions are dominated by women.

On top of that. Lets talk about how men have the pressure of being the bread winner of the family. Sure there are a few cool women out there that know it should be half/half, ideally. and there are a few people that don't mind if the guy makes a little less and the woman makes a little more, but men are looked at as a loser if they make less than the woman, by the majority of the world.

Lets also talk about how all these pressures that both genders have and how they affect suicide rates in both parties... spoiler alert, men have a much higher rate of committing suicide than women. Also. Men are taught that emotions are bad... expression is bad...etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9EggTX-Jbk

Hitchens fucking called it in '94. It's a "who is the biggest victim war now" feminists want to perpetuate that they are victims and need protection... need more opportunities. There is just as much opportunities they have as men. They're just different. They will always be different. And it's because men and women are wired differently.

It's like if I complained about getting a job as a summer time landscaper. "These landscapers are discriminating against me and won't give me a job!" I hate the heat. I would never want to be a landscaper. I realize that and don't complain that I can't get a landscaping job. For some reason feminists see women not as prevalent in fields such as directing movies and automatically assume they are being discriminated against. Maybe.... just maybe they aren't as interested in directing actors? and the same thing goes for other fields. Maybe they aren't as interested in those fields... just like men aren't as interested in the fields women dominate?