Yet another reason not to be a CATHOLIC! …………..

Started by 21CIconoclast, July 09, 2016, 10:29:29 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Solomon Zorn

Quote from: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 07:31:04 PM
Jesus didn't "keep on asking" and when He did ask... look at how things are written and consider how things were stated in whole. that wasn't out of concern or worry, it was a question to them so they may think.
He asked them at least twice - after feeding the five thousand, and after feeding the four thousand. It wasn't making them think at all. It was finding out what their opinion was, to see if he was convincing them of his divinity.

Quote from: randomvinI do same when kids I watched were done reading books for school.  ask so they thought about the book in a critical way instead of just being thoughtless.
Not the same thing, at all. He didn't ask them to think critically about the "miracle," he asked them to tell him, whom people thought that he was.

Quote from: randomvimI talk to many. Healing occurs more than just physical and that is as they teach. Sadly not all follow in their faith.
Faith healing was as fake back then, as it is today. If the man really existed, and practiced it, then he was a charlatan. Psychosomatic bullshit doesn't count as healing. Neither do anecdotal oddities, where someone gets better unexpectedly. If faith healing worked it would be obvious to all that it worked. It would be consistent, and faith healers would be able to heal actual illnesses. But they are not, and they never have been able to heal a real problem. The "faith as a mustard seed" that Jesus preached, is useless, because it can't move a mustard seed, let alone a mountain.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

randomvim



Quote from: Solomon Zorn on September 13, 2016, 04:14:34 AM
He asked them at least twice - after feeding the five thousand, and after feeding the four thousand. It wasn't making them think at all. It was finding out what their opinion was, to see if he was convincing them of his divinity.
Not the same thing, at all. He didn't ask them to think critically about the "miracle," he asked them to tell him, whom people thought that he was.
Faith healing was as fake back then, as it is today. If the man really existed, and practiced it, then he was a charlatan. Psychosomatic bullshit doesn't count as healing. Neither do anecdotal oddities, where someone gets better unexpectedly. If faith healing worked it would be obvious to all that it worked. It would be consistent, and faith healers would be able to heal actual illnesses. But they are not, and they never have been able to heal a real problem. The "faith as a mustard seed" that Jesus preached, is useless, because it can't move a mustard seed, let alone a mountain.
1.
Jesus spoke in parables and promoted thought just about every time He spoke. I would think this to be evident and be present when Jesus would know what others thought of Him.

your comment on Jesus asking about twice shows it wasn't out of concern for own identity. a person like that would ask often and be expressed in more than one way.

2. Many things count as a Miracle and healing. otherwise on what authority would one have to say a person/being g may not act in a possible way?

regardless of authority why should any one think healing is limited to an obvious out come where they can see it happen in front of them?

depression is an illness.

in such regard why should I ignore incidences where a person is sick and then just better w/o or w/ little explanation?


Jack89

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on September 12, 2016, 05:20:52 PM
Thank you.

I was talking about evangelicals, specifically. Catholicism seems to be slowly evolving. But when it comes to comforting the fearful, your doctrine of hell is not going away as far as I can see. And do they let divorcees participate in communion now? Or women be priests? Or permit horny people to use rubbers? The evangelicals are the worst, but you fuckers aren't much better.
My mistake then.  Since this thread is about Catholics, I assumes you were making a blanket statement including them.  The issues you bring up are controversial, even among Catholics, but as I said, if you don't want to be a part of it, no one if forcing you to.  I personally feel there are good practical reasons behind most of the traditions of the Church, even if they're not readily apparent.  And there are those that I'm not too keen on either, but their not deal breakers for me. 

Jack89

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 12, 2016, 05:27:48 PM
I'm sure a convert's enthusiasm has a lot to do with what you see.
I don't really see myself as a convert.  I was baptized Catholic as an infant, went to a couple of years of Catholic school, did the altar boy thing, received First Communion, and so on when I was a kid.  I eventually rejected the sky-daddy view of God(s), and still do, which led to my atheist views for so many years.  I started seeing things from a different perspective and began understanding the importance of tradition, God as goodness itself, and the unity the Catholic Church, and other religions offer.  Is it perfect? Of course not, but I think it's pretty good. 

sdelsolray


Solomon Zorn

Quote from: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 08:03:00 AM
1.
Jesus spoke in parables and promoted thought just about every time He spoke. I would think this to be evident and be present when Jesus would know what others thought of Him.

your comment on Jesus asking about twice shows it wasn't out of concern for own identity. a person like that would ask often and be expressed in more than one way.
There are no parables involved here. It was a simple, straightforward question, showing his concern for whom people thought he was. A similar self-promotion is in the statement, "No man comes to the Father, but by me," and riddled throughout his preaching. The way I see it,  5000 followers will give a faith-healer a big head.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Solomon Zorn

Quote from: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 08:03:00 AM2. Many things count as a Miracle and healing. otherwise on what authority would one have to say a person/being g may not act in a possible way?
The "authority" supposedly proven by the miracles, is just as indefensible as the miracles themselves, and completely unnecessary for moral guidance.

Quote from: randomvimregardless of authority why should any one think healing is limited to an obvious out come where they can see it happen in front of them?

depression is an illness.
Faith-healing depression, is NOT a miracle. And I shouldn't need to explain to you why it's not.

Quote from: randomvimin such regard why should I ignore incidences where a person is sick and then just better w/o or w/ little explanation?
Because there is no consistency. No one can pray for, or lay hands on a person with a physical ailment, and heal it. Neither can anyone heal themselves through faith. Don't commit the Post Hoc fallacy, by claiming that because you prayed, and your mom got better, that the prayer was the cause. If you could pray any time you wanted, for incurable illness to disappear, and it did so with consistency, it might be evidence of something. But that doesn't take place now, and it didn't take place back then. Think of Mother Theresa. She spent an entire lifetime praying over the sick. But when it comes to healing incurable illness, she was only associated with two instances of unexplained remissions. If there was a consistent pattern to it, you might have a reason to believe she performed miracles. But there is no consistency.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Baruch

In a world without real doctors, occasional psychosomatic healing (aka salve-ing aka saving) is pretty impressive, even if it is of psychosomatic ailments.  The patient or their family would show gratitude.  In a corrupt society under Roman occupation, there were lots of psychosomatic ailments, both individual and social.

Being impressed, in the last 100 years, with biochemical medicine ... isn't surprising either.  But modern medicine doesn't cure dis-ease ... it is meant to eliminate infection by mold, bacteria and virus.  That helps, but it doesn't necessarily put the patient at ease.  Curing dis-ease is psychosomatic ... and the only way to cure hypochondriacs.  Words are constantly redefined ... for marketing.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Solomon Zorn

Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2016, 07:31:51 PM
In a world without real doctors, occasional psychosomatic healing (aka salve-ing aka saving) is pretty impressive, even if it is of psychosomatic ailments.  The patient or their family would show gratitude.  In a corrupt society under Roman occupation, there were lots of psychosomatic ailments, both individual and social.
But I'm sure you'll agree, that curing one isn't a miracle. It should go without saying, that if the problem is all in your mind, then a solution is probably there too. If there is a genuine brain disorder, no faith healer is going to have any success, any more than they could cure a heart defect.

"Genuine" faith healing, if there could be said to be such a thing, is limited entirely to psychosomatic illnesses, and even then, I doubt you could find many cases of lasting change. More likely some kind of hypnotic oratory, followed by some kind of touching, brings a temporary endorphin-euphoria for some easily persuaded people, and they feel better momentarily. But long enough to tell everybody they've been healed. And so witnesses walk away with a story, but most never follow up on the "healed" person.

Then again don't underestimate the human capacity for duplicity, because you might find that the one being healed, has something to gain by faking it. 15 seconds of attention from a celebrity, or getting to tag along with the inner circle.



Quote from: BaruchBeing impressed, in the last 100 years, with biochemical medicine ... isn't surprising either.  But modern medicine doesn't cure dis-ease ... it is meant to eliminate infection by mold, bacteria and virus.  That helps, but it doesn't necessarily put the patient at ease.  Curing dis-ease is psychosomatic ... and the only way to cure hypochondriacs.  Words are constantly redefined ... for marketing.
I have medicine for dis-ease as well:  :weed:
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Baruch

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 14, 2016, 05:14:44 PM
What color is the sky on your planet?

I don't look thru the red or blue sun glasses ... I can relate to different people, even primitive or pre-modern people, because I focus on what we have in common, not on what makes us different.  In that sense, I can understand where they are coming from, even if they aren't around to cross examine.  What was psychologically true 2000 years ago, is still going on in some parts.  Shamen in Indonesia for example.  I don't have to apply the "civilizing mission" of the imperialist to them ... or to medieval or ancient people.  Their lives were just as interesting and valuable even if they don't/didn't have iPhones.  I have no reason to apply a secular missionary position to any and all folks out there ... so everyone is homogenized to my particular fetish.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

I don't judge those who self medicate, though in much of our modern culture this is considered criminal behavior.  And of course curing all disease is like curing the dead of death ... can't be done psychosomatically.  So?  I would rather have a faith healer cure me of something psychosomatic (lets say I live in rural India) than having to pay $1000 per month for crappy Obamacare .. that only lines the pockets of the Drug industry and the Insurance industry.

100 years ago, we didn't worship doctors .. most were considered snake oil salesman and quacks ... and they were.  Things are much improved, but the overall thrust of the medical business remains the same.  If you can get access to competent medical care, that is actually necessary (and not iatrogenic) ... then go for it.  Rob some third world country so you can afford a subsidized price.  The ends justifies the means, for First world folks.

I work with doctors ... and they are barely competent gate keepers, that can only handle routine cases.  Rare or non-routine cases are beyond them, unless you can get to Mayo Clinic.  Most of us can't, and if we could, we can't pay for it.  This is a group happy pill trick.  If one person you know is a millionaire, then everyone is prosperous or should be.  If one person can afford a course of treatment that involves 6 months in intensive care ... then we all can.  Meanwhile we drink and smoke on.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Solomon Zorn

Quote from: Baruch on September 14, 2016, 07:00:13 PM
I don't judge...Meanwhile we drink and smoke on.
I think this tangent has reached too far from the original post, for me.

Any signs I see of improvement in the practices and teachings of Catholicism, are too quickly shot down by all that is left undone. Francis can't escape the influence of tradition. He will not remove the burdens his pharisee, forefathers have, in their zealousy, mistakenly laid on the human race, instilling the fear of Hell in children, thereby teaching them not respect of  God, but utter terror of the fucking Monster at the End of Your Life. Then they stick you with the only solution from this fate-for-all-sinners: Jesus.

What little kid didn't feel a mixture of sadness, for poor Jesus when they heard about the nails being driven into his hands, and an amazing loss of trust, in the Father who let him die. I remember crying over some old painting in a Bible, when I first was told the story.

What a stupid picture to paint of God. What a truly despicable fuckwad, he would have to be to let his son go through it. Talk about child abuse, how's crucifixion rank?

But here's the punchline: it's all just a metaphor anyway.
A crucifiction.
Interpret the lesson as you see fit.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

reasonist

Quote from: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 10:31:43 AM
how was Jesus constantly worrying?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



I have to break it to you random, or Randy, you will go to hell unless you are a Jew.

Matthew 16:24 "I was sent ONLY to help God's lost sheep - the people of Israel."

So only a tiny part of God's 'creation' was chosen. 14 million Jews on this planet, out of 7 billion 'creations'. Plus, a little patch of desert was given to them by their imaginary friend. The only place in the ME without oil. Of course this makes all perfect sense - for the flock.

Luke 13:57  "I have come to divide people against each other."

So step aside believers. You are holding us up, we want to move on, explore, invent and discover without interference. You have held us back for 2 millenia but now we have science and with it comes information. Information that exposes religion for what it is. A feeble attempt of our ancestors to explain natural phenomena; a primitive, stone age superstition from the infancy of our species. It's time we shed this ugly vice and start using reason and logic instead of blind faith and self deception.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities
Voltaire

Blackleaf

Quote from: reasonist on September 16, 2016, 12:08:43 PM
I have to break it to you random, or Randy, you will go to hell unless you are a Jew.

Matthew 16:24 "I was sent ONLY to help God's lost sheep - the people of Israel."

So only a tiny part of God's 'creation' was chosen. 14 million Jews on this planet, out of 7 billion 'creations'. Plus, a little patch of desert was given to them by their imaginary friend. The only place in the ME without oil. Of course this makes all perfect sense - for the flock.

Luke 13:57  "I have come to divide people against each other."

So step aside believers. You are holding us up, we want to move on, explore, invent and discover without interference. You have held us back for 2 millenia but now we have science and with it comes information. Information that exposes religion for what it is. A feeble attempt of our ancestors to explain natural phenomena; a primitive, stone age superstition from the infancy of our species. It's time we shed this ugly vice and start using reason and logic instead of blind faith and self deception.

Where are you getting those verses from? The Matthew 16:24 I'm seeing looks completely different, and Luke 13:57 doesn't appear to exist. lol
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--