"If Youre Liberal and You Think Hillary Clinton Is Corrupt and Untrustworthy..."

[Poison Tree]

we are dealing with the democratic party that is very in-line with what Hillary Clinton is.

Judging by the primaries, that's not entirely true.  The leadership perhaps, but not the rank-and-file.

While that is true, it is also true that the party is not in line with her in both directions. A lot is made about Clinton loosing among voters who want the next president to be more liberal that Obama is, she has also been loosing among voters who want the next president to be less liberal than Obama--a fact that appears to have been a driving force behind her loosing West Virginia. I actually suspect that even a significant percentage of those who want a president more liberal that Obama were voting against Hillary rather than for Sanders.

[gentle_dissident]

I actually suspect that even a significant percentage of those who want a president more liberal that Obama were voting against Hillary rather than for Sanders.

The possibilities far outweigh the realities.

[Baruch]

Well that was a strange article. It seems like the author is attempting to suggest that everything bad that is known about Hillary is really just some republican frame job. I guess in his mind, shes really a flawless angel of virtue.

I won't be voting for Clinton. Yes thats right. Even if the consequences are that Donald Trump wins. (I won't be voting for him either, btw). Why will I not be voting for Clinton? Its simple. I don't like her. Shes a shady character, a social and political chameleon, and frankly she simply wants it way too fucking much. To the point where she is essentially willing to cheat in the primary even while she is ahead. Further, she has had the unconditional, unmitigated support of the media since day 1 which sets off all sorts of blaring alarms in my mind.

I think in an environment free of media interference, on a stage with all of the candidates' history, attributes and positions presented side by side, the American people by and large would not choose her as president or even as the democratic nominee. I feel like her victory is the result of momentum that she was given - for free by the media - right in the start with the constant reporting of delegate numbers including super delegates of which she had 500 more than anyone else. The average American was given a total, and the fact that the superdelegates could change their votes was underplayed in the media to say the least. In short, the media gave her a 500 delegate lead that she didn't really have and she rode it to victory.

I won't cast a vote for the media selected candidate. I won't cast a vote for the corporate sponsorship candidate. I won't cast a vote for the DNC establishment selected candidate. The peoples choice has been grossly subverted in multiple ways in this campaign, whether it be through misinformation or through actual honest to god outright cheating like the DNC rearranging voting districts to shift delegates away from Sanders AFTER THE PRIMARY WAS ALREADY OVER.

She and her supporters reek of dishonesty and they DO NOT DESERVE MY VOTE. If Donald Trump wins then so fucking be it. It just means that Hillary wasn't good enough to make it. Every one of you should be depressed as fuck that these two nimrods are our only choices.

Nixon in a skirt suit.  Holding up V fingers and exclaiming "I am not a Republican".  Who will be her Spiro T?  Will she get a Presidential pardon before even being indicted?  I bet Kissinger is advising her, same as he did the original Nixon.  I wasn't old enough to vote for Nixon, but I am sure the folks who said "anybody but Hubert Humphrey" were proud of how things turned out ;-(

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I doubt trump will win, but unless he is absolutely trounced and loses by near triple digits he'll have set up the framework for the next shithead or groups of shitheads to run on the idea that they can get elected by being as racist and mysoginistic as possible.  Even if Trump comes within spitting distance of winning he'll set the precedent of gaining the traction he has by being the biggest shithead in the room.  Sadly we're going to be in for even worse candidates than trump because all of the filters of presidential speak has been trashed. 

[SGOS]

Even if Trump comes within spitting distance of winning he'll set the precedent of gaining the traction he has by being the biggest shithead in the room.

How narrow minded the GOP can become is unlimited.  It has been marching forward pushed along by the banner of intolerance for years.  It keeps becoming stranger, more militant, and more illogical.  With or without Trump, I see no reason why such an insane march would not continue.  He's just nudging it along a little faster, but the GOP would have gotten there on their own eventually.  Until now, the party has been underestimating the public thirst for the wild and unpredictable.  I've often wondered if this is part of a normal pattern of a civilization in decline.

[Baruch]

I doubt trump will win, but unless he is absolutely trounced and loses by near triple digits he'll have set up the framework for the next shithead or groups of shitheads to run on the idea that they can get elected by being as racist and mysoginistic as possible.  Even if Trump comes within spitting distance of winning he'll set the precedent of gaining the traction he has by being the biggest shithead in the room.  Sadly we're going to be in for even worse candidates than trump because all of the filters of presidential speak has been trashed.

This is how it has been since Eisenhower.  Unless people fight to keep the gains (and I mean violence) of the 1960s, y'all are going to go back to the cabin and pick some more cotton.

[Baruch]

How narrow minded the GOP can become is unlimited.  It has been marching forward pushed along by the banner of intolerance for years.  It keeps becoming stranger, more militant, and more illogical.  With or without Trump, I see no reason why such an insane march would not continue.  He's just nudging it along a little faster, but the GOP would have gotten there on their own eventually.  Until now, the party has been underestimating the public thirst for the wild and unpredictable.  I've often wondered if this is part of a normal pattern of a civilization in decline.

History repeats, remember the 1850s in the US?  Remember the "Southern Strategy" of Rs picking up disaffected Ds because of the Civil Rights movement?  Hillary is to feminism as Obama is to African-American progress ... Uncle Toms all.  The people behind Obama are White, the people behind Hillary are male.  And all the people can be fooled all the time.

[widdershins]

I think the GOP establishment got some sense knocked into them this time around.  Even some of their own are openly discussing voting for Hillary because they hate Trump so much and because, frankly, he's just a lousy candidate.  ANY experienced sane person would be a better pick and an inexperienced crazy shit like Trump.

Trump is the result of decades spent courting the fringe and playing on the fears of the ignorant and lazy who want to be handed an exciting reality rather than be bothered to fact check a mundane reality.  They made the world scarier and scarier to keep the ignorant voting against their own self-interest never realizing that at some point even the ignorant are going to say, "I keep voting Republican and things keep getting WORSE!"

I think gay marriage played a huge role in tipping their voting pool.  Here is a physical, tangible thing that got scarier with the world.  People they don't like got rights they didn't want those people to have.  I HOPE, but hold out no real belief, that the "nine unelected judges" rhetoric played a role as well.  This is the system set up by the founding fathers.  Those nine unelected judges are as American as it gets, the actual intent the founding fathers had for the country.  But I think your average Republican is either too stupid to grasp that or too smart to allow himself to think about such things lest his religion fall apart.

And, hopefully, people got a taste of what it's like to have too many Republicans in Congress to see the crazy shit they're trying to pull constantly.  About the only time they can all come together to work toward a common goal is when there's a dead horse which needs beating, such as abortion, gay marriage or "religious liberty".  They can't even agree among themselves to do something "conservative" because there's a growing minority which insists in ideological purity and zero compromise.  This, of course, means that they almost never get what they want because that's simply not how government works.  That, in turn, pisses them off at the establishment and makes them double down on not compromising, creating a vicious circle-jerk of useless assholes in Congress.

But all of this shit is the GOPs own making.  They've had to pander to those ever closer to the fringe for decades to remain relevant in the modern world when so many of their ideas are from the '60s or before and I don't think they've had a collective "new" idea since the failed "Reaganomics", and I doubt even that was actually new, just rebranded with a catchy name, something they are still doing today to push it, still pretending it's a glorious idea even as it's bankrupting governments.  The problem, after all, is the Democrats in office who are stopping it from working!  Or the economy.  That damned Obama economy kept it from working!

I still hold out hope they'll change their fucking diapers, grow the hell up and become a respectable party again like they were in the days of Reagan, when Republicans shared all of these crazy-ass conspiracy theories in private instead of openly accusing Democrats of masterminding things like Benghazi.  Hopefully this latest black eye will be enough to wake them up, dump the crazies and start the long road back to relevance through sane, intelligent discussion and fair compromise.  It certainly wouldn't hurt if Rupert Murdoch were to die.  Faux "News" is one of the biggest problems with the GOP today, spreading fear and misinformation constantly.

[trdsf]

As a pragmatist, I've supported Hillary all along - but I'm still afraid that Trump is likely to win. Hillary has not only her own so-called "scandals" to run against, she has the Obama legacy to run against. President Obama has done a good job - but he is not going out of office w/the kind of approval ratings that would get his party swept back into office. And now there's another scandal about his place of birth in the news. Apparently, someone has dug up old college IDs showing him registered at Columbia University as a foreign exchange student.Also, is his name Barak - or is it Bruce? It might all be nonsense, but the story will not die.

Actually, President Obama's approval ratings are above 50% and are trending upward.  Not the sort of thing to run away from.  And I don't think the "He wasn't born in America!!1!" thing has any legs anymore.

[marom1963]

Actually, President Obama's approval ratings are above 50% and are trending upward.  Not the sort of thing to run away from.  And I don't think the "He wasn't born in America!!1!" thing has any legs anymore.

That's good news.

[trdsf]

That's good news.

I think a lot of independents and moderate Republicans are looking at Trump and saying "Fuck no."  My Repub friends are all talking about not voting for the first time in their adult lives.

And I think the deeper we get into the campaign, the more Bernie-boys are going to say the same (although according to the latest poll, more Bernie supporters are willing to vote Hillary than Hillary supporters were willing to vote Obama, at the same point in the '08 campaign).

I'm not complacent about this year, but I'm not particularly worried.  Things have to change a lot for Trump to be an electoral threat.  He's pissed off women, blacks, and Latinos -- that right there very nearly seals his fate.

[Hydra009]

(although according to the latest poll, more Bernie supporters are willing to vote Hillary than Hillary supporters were willing to vote Obama, at the same point in the '08)

That would certainly belie the awfully popular idea that Bernie supporters are handing the election to Trump.

[trdsf]

That would certainly belie the awfully popular idea that Bernie supporters are handing the election to Trump.

I'll find the polling; I saw it within the last couple days.

The thing is, the "Bernie supporters are handing the election to Trump" is a media idea -- the media wants a tight race because that means viewers, which means advertising dollars.  The truth -- that Trump is a crooked bigot and that there aren't such dire divisions within the Democratic party -- doesn't induce people to sit down and watch.

[Baruch]

I'll find the polling; I saw it within the last couple days.

The thing is, the "Bernie supporters are handing the election to Trump" is a media idea -- the media wants a tight race because that means viewers, which means advertising dollars.  The truth -- that Trump is a crooked bigot and that there aren't such dire divisions within the Democratic party -- doesn't induce people to sit down and watch.

This.  American Presidential elections are the greatest show on Earth ... with nukes.  That is why Trump isn't disqualified, he's a ringmaster.  Clinton is like the thieving cashier that is taking money from the Carnival till.

[SGOS]

People say a lot of things they don't mean until push comes to shove.  But I don't think many Republicans moved to Canada when Obama was elected, and I don't think many Democrats moved there when Bush was elected.  Same for voting.  If you are campaigning for Sanders, saying you will vote for Hillary doesn't make you sound all that committed to Sanders. 

Some voters may not vote at all if Sanders is not in the race, but from what I understand, many of these are engaging in politics for the first time, so if Sanders had never shown up, they probably wouldn't have been there in the first place.  I'll bet that on voting day, the vast majority of those saying no to Trump, will be early to the polls to vote for Trump.  Same for the anti Hillary people.

I just don't believe most of this pre nomination campaign rhetoric.  I think it's just people spinning their own positions to gain an advantage.  But if I'm wrong, and these are not just idle threats, then each political party might want to become more responsive to their constituency.  They can't expect to keep doing anything they want just because voters have no one else to vote for.  People are going to eventually catch on that all politicians want from them is just their vote.  When that happens, voting starts to become a misguided sense of public duty, and people will lose interest in the game.  I think that is happening today, but not to the extent that people fear it is.