Honor Killings

[Flanker1Six]

I thought of several smart ass titles for the thread, but just couldn't use 'em.  Though I've worked extensively with hundreds of Muslims overseas; this type of atavistic behavior is beyond my comprehension.  Sad, sad, sad!   In fairness; I never ran into any of this mind set/attitude; most of the LNs (local nationals) I associated or worked with were western orientated enough to be motivated to work with the "hated foreigners" (as perceived by local Muslim right wing/ultra conservative types).   Prevailing attitudes can vary significantly by the AO (area or operation) you're in too.  With locals from more rural, less developed areas being more likely to exhibit ultra traditional attitudes.  Interestingly; when I was working in Afghanistan; I noted my company did not hire Pakastani support personnel.  Nothing written or official on it, but it was due to them being considered to be more likely to be religiously unreliable, and/or vulnerable to religious subversion if they hadn't started out that way.  We preferred Indian Hindus in support roles, and in my observation that unstated policy served us well. 
 
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pakistani-woman-burns-daughter-alive-marrying-love-39691817?yptr=yahoo

[Munch]

Can I ask a question, you saying you worked overseas with people from those regions, when you did, was their ever the impression from people in those regions that they wanted to leave their country and move elsewhere, and if so did they ever express why they felt it. If not, whats your thoughts on all those who have moved from middle eastern countries to western ones, such as the difference between ‘economic migrants’ and refugees.

The idea of honor killings exists but its one of those things thats the most far end of the worst kind of bastards, however when I read stories like the increase of sharia based society growing in cities like london, it can start a trend, just like street gangs.

[Baruch]

There are bride burnings in India, but it is criminal, not religious.  Men marry multiple times, and the new wife has a fatal kitchen accident.  The groom then gets to keep the dowry ;-(

In traditional society, you don't have a police system or court system.  The family has to police their own, whether with beatings or killings.  If the family doesn't to that, then inter-tribal warfare may start, particularly if the offense crosses tribal boundaries.

[doorknob]

these women risked their lives to marry their love and lost their lives in doing so. This should tell the families something. But unfortunately attitudes of families involved feel justified for their actions. That's pretty warped.

[Flanker1Six]

Can I ask a question, you saying you worked overseas with people from those regions, when you did, was their ever the impression from people in those regions that they wanted to leave their country and move elsewhere, and if so did they ever express why they felt it. If not, whats your thoughts on all those who have moved from middle eastern countries to western ones, such as the difference between ‘economic migrants’ and refugees.

The idea of honor killings exists but its one of those things thats the most far end of the worst kind of bastards, however when I read stories like the increase of sharia based society growing in cities like london, it can start a trend, just like street gangs.

Yea.  Everyone wanted to visit the States.  Which apparently consisted only of: Las Vegas, Las Angelas, and NYC!  LOL!   I wonder who was getting all the press in the news over there. 

Seriously................we (US Government--remember I was a subcontractor; not a direct employee) offered Iraqis and Afghanis at least three different routes to immigrate to the US.  The usual one (LOT'S of bitching about the length of time it took), a refugee program (for people who might feel, or actually were being targeted for working with us, or persecuted for some other reason, and was usually quicker than option A), and a third one that wasn't used much, and I don't really recall anything about at this late a date.   

The usual one was the one most likely to attract people who were interested in becoming US citizens (mostly economic motivation & frequently based on good word of mouth press from relatives already in the US).  It was also attracting scads of Chaldeans and Assyrians (all Christians) who were/are under heavy Islamic pressure to GTFO.   

The refugee program was pretty active too, and it's easy to see working for the coalition could, and did have negative consequences; ranging from micky mouse harassment to rape, maiming, and killing. 

Because the projects I worked on in The Stan were significantly different from the ones in Iraq.................I really didn't have much to do with immigration issues there except over the course of my year there to make 3 or 4 referrals to the proper US Embassy Dept in Kabul. 

I worked quite closely within my own organization and with other interested western parties on vetting Iraqis for internal security purposes.  WHAT a ******* nightmare.  Foreign  language and alphabet, piss poor to non existent records or records accessability, and DUH!  what do they really say? if you can get a hold of them, no really reliable Iraqi picture/written ID system, much of the vetting depended on asking questions and recording their answers (aka as "the honor system")  i.e.  Well, Mr. Munch; have you ever been a terrorist, or affiliated with a terrorist organization?  Have you ever wanted to be a terrorist?  Are any of your family or friends terrorists?  Then assessing their answers, and cross checking against our own and Iraqi intel sources.  I'm sure you  can see some inherent flaws with that approach, combined with little to no means of cross checking answers/relationships via a detailed functional records system like most western countries.

Refugees (as in from the last two years of post Arab Spring)---absolutely stupid to allow them to come here.  If the REAL point is to provide aid and assistance to relieve their suffering wouldn't it be A: Better for them to be housed in another Arab Muslim country that has similar cultural, social, and religious values/familiarity?  B: That Arab Muslim country is closer to home; meaning if and when repatriation becomes possible it's MUCH easier, quicker, and less disruptive for all involved.  C: It's cheaper. PERIOD!  Meaning you can provide a MUCH higher level of aid and comfort for a given amount of aid.  Little to no vetting necessary.  No air fares.  EVERYTHING there is cheaper than here, med care/supplies, food, construction, education....you get the drift.   We might have to purchase some supply types somewhere other than the host country--in general it would still be much cheaper. 

[Munch]

Its thought provoking to think about the biggest problem with the refugee crisis is one that just comes with it. Genuine refugees comes over to western countries to escape the war torn lands they come from and threat of death around every corner, however when economic migrants also come along with them, those who are either well enough in their own country they just want to suck from the well the european union gives them, or those who come here for worse reasons such as spreading sharia or barbaric cultural practices, then the refugees who worked to get away from that life are just coming to another country where the issues followed them, as we've seen from the violence, crime and murders happening not just in the refugee camps, but in areas surrounding them.

The argument could be made that desperate people do this because they are desperate, but I think we've seen enough examples of the most extreme kind of bastards who don't have anything to flee from, they are the fuckers these other refugees were trying to run from, and nobody can tell until its to late who are really in need of help, and who are just their to spread sharia or rape or murder.

[Baruch]

these women risked their lives to marry their love and lost their lives in doing so. This should tell the families something. But unfortunately attitudes of families involved feel justified for their actions. That's pretty warped.

Romantic love is a recent Western invention.  In most places and most times, it has nothing to do with the bride or groom.  It is about inter-family business.

[Flanker1Six]

Romantic love is a recent Western invention.  In most places and most times, it has nothing to do with the bride or groom.  It is about inter-family business.

Right you are sir/ma'am!  I had a female interpreter (Chaldean/Christian) on my payroll during my first Iraq project; she was 21; her mother also worked for us; she was 33 (actually; regardless of superstitious affiliation; arranged marriages were very common).   According to them; arranged marriages were their community norm. Dad was long gone (wasn't sure if it was long gone as in dead, or just divorced--wasn't any of my business so I didn't ask, and they never said); the daughter said he was an abusive beating POS; her mother said the same independently of the daughter.   Both had pending immigration apps to the US, and I assume they've been here for a while now.

On a lighter note................the compound I initially worked out of had two local ladies employed for house keeping/janitorial duties.  They were also
Chaldean.  One day they came into the office all stoked; because they had finally gotten their long awaited approval to immigrate to the US!  w00t!  So I asked them where they'd be going? 

Washington!!!   We'll see the seat of the US Government and all the monuments from TV!   

Uuuhhhh.......you ladies do know there are two Washingtons in the US; right?   

What??!!   

Yes, there's Washington DC; our Capital, and Washington State. 

What is Washington State?!

So I pulled up a map of the US on the comp, and showed them the difference/locations.

Spokane, Washington.................where they were actually going (that's where they're sponsoring US citizen/organization was located).  Hope the monuments were to their liking!  I really felt bad because they were really nice; were hard working employees, and  were were obviously deflated when they found out the difference. 

They'd also mentioned they were really pumped to see Graceland (Elvis Presley's home--it's in Tennessee).  I really didn't have the heart to say anything about where that was located; I just told them it was really supposed to be a cool place to visit-------------I'm sure they've since discovered it for themselves.         

[Baruch]

Good to see that American teenagers aren't the only one's ignorant of geography ;-)

[PopeyesPappy]

The honor of men is responsible for much of the violence in the world. It isn't limited to Muslim or Hindu men either. The world would be better off if we taught our children your honor is solely based on what you do, and isn't affected by what others do to you.

As far as honor killings go that's a problem with the perceived value of life. There is something seriously wrong with someone who believes their daughter's life is less valuable than the father's honor.

[SGOS]

I dunno.  Would I be happier if I had more honor?  Hell, I've done enough stupid things in my life that have pretty much destroyed most of my precious sense of honor.  Yet, I'm still mostly happy, have an income, and feel grateful for many things.  And now that I think about it, any loss of honor that I have ever endured was because of things I've done.  I have never felt a loss of honor over the stupid things other people around me have done.

I think if your daughter falls in love with the wrong boy, the only honorable thing to do would be to shoot yourself in the head.  Only then would people really understand how important your fucking honor was to you.  Shooting your daughter really doesn't help your honor that much.  But shooting yourself?  Now, that's something!

[Baruch]

The honor of men is responsible for much of the violence in the world. It isn't limited to Muslim or Hindu men either. The world would be better off if we taught our children your honor is solely based on what you do, and isn't affected by what others do to you.

As far as honor killings go that's a problem with the perceived value of life. There is something seriously wrong with someone who believes their daughter's life is less valuable than the father's honor.

In Brazil, it is legal for a husband to kill his wife and her lover, if the husband catches them in the act.

[Flanker1Six]

In Brazil, it is legal for a husband to kill his wife and her lover, if the husband catches them in the act.

I knew at least a dozen guys, over the years, who were in prison for doing just that.   

[Baruch]

I knew at least a dozen guys, over the years, who were in prison for doing just that.

Not recommending honor killing myself, just mentioning that it isn't just Muslims who do it.  If Hillary had done an honor killing on Bill ... I would vote for her however ;-)