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Captain Americas.. a Nazi?

Started by Munch, May 28, 2016, 07:11:38 PM

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Hydra009

Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 01, 2016, 02:54:36 AM
Sorry... don't understand the reference... :(
RWBY reference.  Initially, I thought it was a Gundam Wing reference, but I was mistaken.

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 01, 2016, 03:18:32 AM
RWBY reference.  Initially, I thought it was a Gundam Wing reference, but I was mistaken.
I still haven't watched that. I've heard many good things about it. First from @Hijiri Byakuren , then a lot of other people. I don't know why I haven't watched it yet...

Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 01, 2016, 02:54:36 AM
Sorry... don't understand the reference... :(
You need to watch RWBY, in that case.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

gentle_dissident

My daughter likes RWBY, so I made her this paper doll for Yule.


Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 06, 2016, 01:42:38 AM
My daughter likes RWBY, so I made her this paper doll for Yule.


I hope the third season didn't traumatize her too much! They went from happy fun times to "oh God why" really damn quickly.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Hydra009

#35
https://youtu.be/93xtez5j1vE?t=3m27s

(she starts talking about Cap's Hail Hydra moment 3m27s in)

I broadly agree, though I disagree that you can't have an opinion if you don't read or buy comics.  I also don't understand the emphasis on it being fiction.

I do agree with her that comic book characters are dynamic - they have their ups and downs.  Granted, this is one hell of a down, but in order to build him back up again, you have to make him hit a low point like this.  Maybe this was a bit too much, but I guarantee it'll be retconned to be less damaging to Cap's established character.

I also agree that comics, despite their immense fame, boast surprisingly small sales figures.  We're talking sales in the hundred thousands for a few extremely well-received issues, but mostly in the tens of thousands or less.  Comics companies rely on attention-grabbers like this to keep up sales numbers.

Also, the fandom gets bent out of shape far too easily.

In Iron Man #308, Tony Stark's body is taken over by an AI who 1) gets wasted, undoing years of rehab 2) tries to rape Tony's gf 3) goes on a murder spree in the Iron Man suit.  The fallout from that was nothing compared to the fallout from this.

The community is way more brittle now and less accepting of change.  The end result of this shift is a narrowing of the sweet spot between shocking (good reaction) and outrageous (bad reaction).  The long-term consequences could be writers sticking to more conservative stories to not upset fans, generating duller and less interesting stories.

gentle_dissident

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 06, 2016, 09:24:44 AM
I hope the third season didn't traumatize her too much!

Don't let the pink owl fool you. She's a happy goth.

Hakurei Reimu

Comic book writers know how to break characters. Most haven't figured out how to successfully fix them.

I think such a storyline could work if Cap somehow came to believe that he was already working for a terrorist organization â€"the US governmentâ€" and as such would come to accept that Hydra was the better deal after all. A few issues later, he would discover that he was being manipulated, and now has to live with that decision. It would become a character piece where even someone with lofty ideals and a genuinely good character can be bamboozled into doing acts against those ideals.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Munch

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 06, 2016, 05:40:27 PM
Comic book writers know how to break characters. Most haven't figured out how to successfully fix them.


I've seen a lot of writers who love to break characters and what they represent, but never bring them back up from it. In comic books, they usually use a universal revamp and start over, wiping the slate clean, but in other genres, its obvious like with children, they like to build towers, enjoy knocking them over, but then ask and adult to rebuild said tower.

J. Michael Straczynski, made one more day, never apologized for it and never went to fixing it, leaving it to Joe Quesada to right what he wrote. In the lore of warcraft, Thrall was the badass leader of the horde, until blizzard had him leave the position, giving it to someone who (Garrosh), and having him go on some hippie shamanistic journey where he meet his wife and planned on having children, and even today people refer to him as green jesus because of this, even with the games writers doing a half arsed attempted at trying to make him somewhat like his old self again.

I follow the belief of if its not broke don't fix it. If stories about characters get samey, then stop writing about them, don't just change them out for something else.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Hakurei Reimu

I stand corrected, then: most comic book writers who break characters haven't figured out that they need to fix them.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Draconic Aiur


Hydra009

#41
For those of you seeking an update, I've read issue #2.  The "hail hydra" moment wasn't like it appears.  The Cap we know and love hasn't been ruined forever.

[spoiler]Cap is being manipulated by a sentient, humanoid cosmic cube controlled by Red Skull.  Cap is acting the way he is because of false memories.

So those of us who said it was definitely some form of brainwashing (me) are absolutely correct.  And those of you who knee-jerked about this apparent outrage before waiting to see how the story would play out should feel bad.[/spoiler]

Gawdzilla Sama

We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Munch

[spoiler][spoiler]Cap is being manipulated by a sentient, humanoid cosmic cube controlled by Red Skull.  Cap is acting the way he is because of false memories.

So those of us who said it was definitely some form of brainwashing (me) are absolutely correct.  And those of you who knee-jerked about this apparent outrage before waiting to see how the story would play out should feel bad.[/spoiler]

AH HAHAHA!! Oooooh thats priceless. some weeks ago when the story broke, the creator of the comic himself said 'this is not mind control or manipulation', and one issue later their backtracking, probably even prefering nobody heard them make the claim it was going to be manipulation.

QuoteNick Spender: “The one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.” Well, turns out it was some form of mind control.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/06/marvel-backtracks-on-captain-america-revelation-af.html[/spoiler]
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

Gawdzilla Sama

Next they'll be saying Steve and Bucky don't have a bromance going.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers