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Rebirthing

Started by gentle_dissident, May 26, 2016, 02:19:47 AM

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Hydra009

#1
They're both comics giants, neither one is a pushover.  From figures I've seen, Marvel currently has the box office edge (Marvel has lots more movie revenue but also lots more movies and only slightly better average revenue per movie).

Personally, I greatly prefer Marvel to DC, though it's surprisingly difficult to say exactly why.

DC is more rooted in golden age tropes (30s and 40s) and the characters seem too godlike and unrelatable.  Prime example is superman, but other characters fall into this same mold.  I also got really turned off by the darker and edgier streak.  And yeah, DC tends to rely heavily (too heavily imho) on Superman and Batman.  They seem to be changing, but the inertia is going to be with us for a long time.  Though for all my criticisms of DC, I will say in DC's defense that Nolan's Dark Knight was awesome, as were the Batman animated series and the 2001-2004 Justice League cartoon.

Marvel is more rooted in the 60s with relatively normal people having incredible powers thrust upon them.  Prime example is Spider-Man, who initially didn't even want to be a superhero.  Or Iron Man, who built his gadget out of necessity.  He's not a boy scout - in fact, he struggles with alcoholism, father issues, and keeping secrets from his friends (Iron Man #284).  He can be an arrogant asshole sometimes, but he also embodies the opportunity to make the world a better place through technology.  Or take the X-Men, whose bizarre powers make them targets of fear and hate.  In addition to saving the world, they wage an ideological war in trying to bridge the divide between humans and mutants.  Lots of great themes about responsibility, the promise and peril of technology, and tolerance.  Marvel's stories resonate way better with me.

TomFoolery

I agree with the DC archetype being too rooted in the classical 30s and 40s and this generation being less interested in that.

Moreover, Marvel has a much larger bag to choose from. I like Marvel comics and couldn't even remember who the Guardians of the Galaxy were when that film came out. But between the Avengers, both together and as individuals, the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, and all the others including Spiderman, Daredevil, Doctor Strange, Deadpool, Ghost Rider, etc. Marvel has a lot more fuel to be a lot more popular.

Imagine them as two competing children's birthday parties. DC Comics has cake and party hats and of course there's nothing wrong with cake and party hats: they're perfectly fine.

Marvel has pizza, ice cream, magicians, pony rides, helicopter rides, a petting zoo, a live band, and free iPods. All of those things are perfectly fine too, but which party do you think you have the better chance of going to and spending the most time at? 

How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

gentle_dissident

Quote from: TomFoolery on May 26, 2016, 08:53:33 AM
which party do you think you have the better chance of going to and spending the most time at?

Six Flags, DC's party down the road, has let me celebrate as an ex-worker, which I never was. Fantastic party. However, in the unlikely event that I'm behind the scenes at Disney, I'm sure that party will alter my reality.

I'm of the Light Side, so I dropped DC a while back.

doorknob

#4
And here I thought this was gonna be about when parents wrap their kids and blankets then beet the shit out of them to simulate being born again.

meh much more boring than I thought.

gentle_dissident

Quote from: doorknob on May 26, 2016, 11:55:11 AM
And here I thought this was gonna be about when parents wrap their kinds and blankets then beet the shit out of them to simulate being born again.

meh much more boring than I thought.

Glad to see you're feeling better.

Hydra009

#6
Quote from: TomFoolery on May 26, 2016, 08:53:33 AMMoreover, Marvel has a much larger bag to choose from. I like Marvel comics and couldn't even remember who the Guardians of the Galaxy were when that film came out. But between the Avengers, both together and as individuals, the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, and all the others including Spiderman, Daredevil, Doctor Strange, Deadpool, Ghost Rider, etc. Marvel has a lot more fuel to be a lot more popular.
And not just more characters, but more variety in personality and physical appearance of those characters.  DC really ran with the Charles Atlas archetype.  Very statuesque, chiseled jaws, etc.





Marvel isn't quite as married to the Charles Atlas build.  Sure, there are also muscles galore, but there are plenty of thin builds and even a few with relatively realistic physiques.





I feel like if DC drew Charles Xavier, they'd draw him with bulging biceps and a six-pack.

Munch

#7
I remember it once being said, DC super heroes at the pinnacle of heroism, they are like gods more or less to average people, standing miles above the everyday man, and what people would strive to being, where as the Marvel heroes are the every-man type heroes, the relatable ones, the more down to earth men and women who deal with more grim and gritty realities.

Lets be honest, stories like the x-men, mutants facing issues of diversity and intolerance, spiderman in dealing with his everyday life against his superhero persona, and bruce banner trying to live a normal life but carrying the weight of his other personality with him, that can be applied to everyday people, where as god like characters like superman, who hides his secret identity with glasses, batman whos one of the richest people on earth, or wonder woman who everyone knows and doesn't have any human relatives to protect, they aren't as relatable, but more what people would aspire to.
I can even remember the legacy virus story in the x-men comics, a disease that targeted mutants, it held such reflection to the Aids crisis and how the public viewed that, and when in the comics the legacy virus passed on to humans, the same thing with the aids crisis and the hystaria straight people had against gays back in the 70s saying they caused it.

Though personally, I'd sooner have the down to earth and rough attitude of wolverine in bed, then someone like superman who has been said many times he can't have sex with an earthling because he might injure them. Probably the fact too that having taken years to come out as gay, the x-men held so much more of a relatable premise then batman or superman. I liked the batman animated series, and sort of liked the superman one, but the x-men series was the one that got me into loving comic books.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

gentle_dissident

#8
Quote from: Munch on May 26, 2016, 07:10:16 PM
I remember it once being said, DC super heroes at the pinnacle of heroism, they are like gods more or less to average people, standing miles above the everyday man, and what people would strive to being, where as the Marvel heroes are the every-man type heroes, the relatable ones, the more down to earth men and women who deal with more grim and gritty realities.

Lets be honest, stories like the x-men, mutants facing issues of diversity and intolerance, spiderman in dealing with his everyday life against his superhero persona, and bruce banner trying to live a normal life but carrying the weight of his other personality with him, that can be applied to everyday people, where as god like characters like superman, who hides his secret identity with glasses, batman whos one of the richest people on earth, or wonder woman who everyone knows and doesn't have any human relatives to protect, they aren't as relatable, but more what people would aspire to.
I can even remember the legacy virus story in the x-men comics, a disease that targeted mutants, it held such reflection to the Aids crisis and how the public viewed that, and when in the comics the legacy virus passed on to humans, the same thing with the aids crisis and the hystaria straight people had against gays back in the 70s saying they caused it.

Excellent post. Thanks to the internet, we no longer hold up the myth of perfection. We now know we will always relate to the struggle to unite a planet and not isolate ourselves with power.

Quote from: Munch on May 26, 2016, 07:10:16 PM
Though personally, I'd sooner have the down to earth and rough attitude of wolverine in bed, then someone like superman who has been said many times he can't have sex with an earthling because he might injure them. Probably the fact too that having taken years to come out as gay, the x-men held so much more of a relatable premise then batman or superman. I liked the batman animated series, and sort of liked the superman one, but the x-men series was the one that got me into loving comic books.

A romp in the hay is a ballet of desires, intimacy, and boundaries. The people and their moment determine that experience, which varies between partners. I'm saying, sensual experiences aren't in a book. However, sexersize is sort of intriguing like tree bark.

Hydra009

Quote from: Munch on May 26, 2016, 07:10:16 PMI remember it once being said, DC super heroes at the pinnacle of heroism, they are like gods more or less to average people, standing miles above the everyday man, and what people would strive to being, where as the Marvel heroes are the every-man type heroes, the relatable ones, the more down to earth men and women who deal with more grim and gritty realities.
Probably reddit:  "The best description I've ever heard was "DC stories are about gods that think they're human. Marvel stories are about men trying to be like gods."

Hydra009

#10
Quote from: Munch on May 26, 2016, 07:10:16 PMI can even remember the legacy virus story in the x-men comics, a disease that targeted mutants, it held such reflection to the Aids crisis and how the public viewed that, and when in the comics the legacy virus passed on to humans, the same thing with the aids crisis and the hystaria straight people had against gays back in the 70s saying they caused it.
Dark Reign was one event that really hit home with me.  Basically, some very bad people worm their way up to the highest echelons of power, taking over previously good organizations like S.H.I.E.L.D and the Avengers and trying to either corrupt or ruin any hero who opposes this new regime.  And all of this is 100% legal.

I don't get bothered by alien invasions or would-be conquerors, but corrupting the very heart of the superhero community from within was deeply troubling.

[spoiler]

I didn't even hate Joffrey as much as this guy.[/spoiler]

And since I feel like I've been doing nothing but crap on DC in this thread, I will say that I enjoyed Power Girl vol2.

[spoiler]

D'aww.[/spoiler]

TomFoolery

Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2016, 02:59:11 AM
Probably reddit:  "The best description I've ever heard was "DC stories are about gods that think they're human. Marvel stories are about men trying to be like gods."

This perfectly describes it. And I think the back stories of the people behind them vary enough that at least one will resonate with someone. My dad hates superhero movies but we conned him into seeing Ant Man last summer, and he surprisingly loved it, just because he could relate to the character.

I will say Marvel pretty seamlessly panders to a wider audience without them being aware of it.

For example, last weekend we went to go see the new Avengers. On the way there I noticed the teaser trailer for the new Star Trek show was posted so I watched it, full on fangirl style. My husband rolled his eyes and said, "There's just no original content anymore." Then I pointed out that we were on our way to see the third Captain America movie, which was really like the third Avengers movie, not to be confused with the three previous Ironmans, two other Hulk films played by two different actors, a Thor movie, and like 97 incarnations of Spiderman and counting.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

stromboli

#12
OK.... the old dude hacks up some mucus and clears his throat.... DC comics ruled the roost back in the 50's and 60's. Marvel had been around for a bit, but back then it was considered a little weird because the characters were conflicted and more human, where the DC characters were archetypes of virtue. I could paint a long history about it, because my sister was a comic book fan and used to bring us DC comic, Mad magazine and Walt Disney comics.

What is missing now is the fact that some of the comics had different story lines that are now gone- Hurok, Son of Stone, The Atomic Knights- (set in a post nuclear future where suits of armor have been turned into impenetrable full body armor) Adam Strange- a personal favorite- and others. A lot of variety. Adam Strange was basically a rehash of Burroughs' John Carter series.

Marvel has generally been more varied, had more human characters and I think translated better from comic books to graphic novels- change the name, but there are some differences. Comics were printed on pulp with less than ideal color transfer. Graphic novels on slick paper with superior graphics. Batman translated into the new era better than the other characters because the flawed, conflicted nature of his character was brought out, where it hadn't been previously.

Superman went from being a bland stereotype good guy to having conflicted love interests and so on. DC started out with a set of characters which ultimately were harder to humanize.

Sorry for the essay. Having a "good old day" morning here.... 

An interesting tidbit. Walt Disney comics are worth more than the others because they are rare.