Is God a Moral Monster? - Slavery in the Old Testament

[Mr.Obvious]

I disagree.

I mean, sure...God could have said, "Do this or else..." but that was not the approach needed to slowly bring the Jews into line with his thinking.

So he did not know how to get them into his line of thinking rapidly (i.e. instantly) or could not do that, instead needing to settle for a slower approach which allowed more suffering than a quick resolve. (Not even counting that if he got his creation right from the start, there would be no need to get them into his line of thinking this late and this slow.) Or what do you mean? How is this not limiting the abilities of your triple-omni creator?

[Randy Carson]

So he did not know how to get them into his line of thinking rapidly (i.e. instantly) or could not do that, instead needing to settle for a slower approach which allowed more suffering than a quick resolve. (Not even counting that if he got his creation right from the start, there would be no need to get them into his line of thinking this late and this slow.) Or what do you mean? How is this not limiting the abilities of your triple-omni creator?

Right. God is a complete idiot because he does not know how to force people to do His bidding without going against their free will.

As I have said before, even God cannot do what is illogical.

And why do you merely ASSUME that a more benevolent form of slavery allowed for MORE suffering than would some other penal system?

This is drifting into the area of opinion, and we cannot possibly reconcile our differences on this matter.

[Poison Tree]

We should be impressed because Hebrew slave owners treated their [male] Hebrew slaves better then their foreign slaves?

That said, the rules established by God for the treatment of slaves by the Israelites were a radical improvement in their day, and this is an example of how God moved one group of people, the Israelites, toward his ultimate objective incrementally.

If it were god's ultimate objective to end slavery then shouldn't he, at some point, have given such an order instead of leaving Christians to fight it out among themselves with no clear and convincing instruction to end slavery? Why not give a clear edict that abolitionists could have used to convince their fellow Christians who owned slaves?

[marom1963]

How many years BEFORE the rise of the Roman empire did Moses receive the Ten Commandments? Approximately?

How many years after the rise of the Egyptian empire did he receive them?

[drunkenshoe]

drunkenshoe,

Don't worry, Randy can't stand logic, reason, and biblical axioms regarding his primitive bible stories, therefore, he won't last long in this thread, I guarantee it!

He is not discussing anything but just posting material he prepared before hand and doing it in multiple forums with a plan and a schedule. Doesn't matter what will you hit him with, he'll continue to repeat the same things from 'different' angles.

[Mr.Obvious]

Right. God is a complete idiot because he does not know how to force people to do His bidding without going against their free will.

As I have said before, even God cannot do what is illogical.

And as I told you before, but what you have not gotten around to yet in the other thread: The kind of 'free will' you seem to imply would be 'above' what an omniscient, omnipotent creator of our creation could logically make. The kind of free will that you imply, given an allpowerful, allknowing and allloving God is logically impossible. God having the Jews come to see things his way slowly involves no more and no less of the 'free will' he could create, than the Jews coming to this much faster or accepting his will immeadiately, even automatically.
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EDIT
As to your edited quote:

And why do you merely ASSUME that a more benevolent form of slavery allowed for MORE suffering than would some other penal system?

This is drifting into the area of opinion, and we cannot possibly reconcile our differences on this matter.

Problem isn't that it would allow more suffering than some other penal system. Problem is any suffering that has happened under any potential system could have been avoided entirely, if he'd done his job right given his unlimited potential.

And while I'll not claim my views are free from bias or couldn't be clouded or wrong, you simply fail to point out what is the fault in the logic. Am I to take this that you also won't go through my admittedly long post in the other thread and respond to it in full? It's okay if you won't. But then at least I'll know I won't have to wait anymore.

[Poison Tree]

Right. God is a complete idiot because he does not know how to force people to do His bidding without going against their free will.

As I have said before, even God cannot do what is illogical.

Free will? Where do you get the idea that god gives a fuck about free will? Did he care about Job's free will not to preach to Nineveh? Did he care about Saul's free will when he struck him blind? Did he care about Balaam's free will when he prevented Balaam from speaking of his own accord, forcing him to say only was god wanted? Did he care about the free will of Sodom and Gomorrah when he destroyed them? Did god care about Pharaoh's free will when he hardened Pharaoh's hart so that he would not listen to Moses and Arron? If you take the bible seriously how is god respecting free will anything but a cop out?

[21CIconoclast]

How many years BEFORE the rise of the Roman empire did Moses receive the Ten Commandments? Approximately?

REQUEST #2

Randy, psssst, its time for you to address my post number one to you in this thread that made you the fool and a hypocrite again, okay?
You're not RUNNING away again from you admitting that Yahweh was a MORAL MONSTER IN THE GREAT FLOOD, ARE YOU? 

BEGIN

[Randy Carson]

We should be impressed because Hebrew slave owners treated their [male] Hebrew slaves better then their foreign slaves?

Would you have preferred to be the slave of a Amelekite?

If it were god's ultimate objective to end slavery then shouldn't he, at some point, have given such an order instead of leaving Christians to fight it out among themselves with no clear and convincing instruction to end slavery? Why not give a clear edict that abolitionists could have used to convince their fellow Christians who owned slaves?

He did. (Think that through before posting again.)

[Randy Carson]

How many years after the rise of the Egyptian empire did he receive them?

So, you don't want to answer the question.

[Poison Tree]

First, what was the practice of the nations around Israel with regard to slaves? Did God's requirements improve the situation or not?

How many years BEFORE the rise of the Roman empire did Moses receive the Ten Commandments? Approximately?

Why wait for Moses or Israel? Is your god not god of Abraham? Is your god not god of Canaan, Japheth and Shem? You said it was god's ultimate goal to end slavery; why not prohibit it from the very beginning?

[21CIconoclast]

Right. God is a complete idiot because he does not know how to force people to do His bidding without going against their free will.

As I have said before, even God cannot do what is illogical.

And why do you merely ASSUME that a more benevolent form of slavery allowed for MORE suffering than would some other penal system?

This is drifting into the area of opinion, and we cannot possibly reconcile our differences on this matter.

Randy,

YOUR QUOTE: "As I have said before, even God cannot do what is illogical."

WTF?  As if calling your Jesus a MORAL MONSTER, A LIAR, AND SAYING HE IS BURNING IN HELL ISN'T ENOUGH, now you say that your Yahweh can't do what is logical? LOL

Listen, you know you're already going to Hell upon your demise, but why seal it to be sure by now saying Yahweh is not logical?  Are you trying to get the hottest place in Hell
reserved for your arrival, is that it? 

Oh, in case you haven't noticed, you've been RUNNING from my post #1 in this thread, you don't want to be known as a candy-assed runaway pseudo-christian, do you?

[Poison Tree]

He did. (Think that through before posting again.)

are really arguing that the south gave up their slaves because they were convinced by biblical argument?

[marom1963]

Why wait for Moses or Israel? Is your god not god of Abraham? Is your god not god of Canaan, Japheth and Shem? You said it was god's ultimate goal to end slavery; why not prohibit it from the very beginning?

The "Sword and Sandals" epics w/the "Romans" in them would do better at the box office. God knew that, see. Nobody would go see the Amelekites - but they'd go see the Romans. At least the Romans would leave behind a few ruins that people could point to.

[marom1963]

are really arguing that the south gave up their slaves because they were convinced by biblical argument?

that - and 1 million rifles and some thousands of cannons - very convincing arguments!