Everything about work.

[Randy Carson]

To my understanding, It appears that you value the "possible" over the "certain". It is as they say, "A dog's bark is worse than it's bite."

Let us say your statement was true. Who is to blame?

If nature took it's course, majority would die on their own. The rest would be an incredible burden to the rest who are living. And let's not forget to mention that these people are not only a exception, but by definition for the requisites of death, these people must have produced no happiness while dead. It is easy to fix this should a good friend or family member care enough to visit, thus showing that even one person cares. I'm talking about people who have been dead to society long before their death, the hated people who simply haven't been placed in prison yet.

As for playing God? I have no intent. This entire conversation is conjecture, a question if I may use that word. A question to see if it can hold up to scrutiny. I already know that it's too utopian. If this ever were to come to light, a machine who knew where everyone was and what they were thinking would control the system. Definitely not me.

I'm simply pointing out that you are taking a purely utilitarian view of human worth and questioning whether that is correct.

According to your approach, mentally handicapped people, for example, would simply be executed at birth if not before to avoid the expense and inconvenience of loving and caring for them.

But then I wonder...what happens to you if you should become injured or ill or suffer a stroke? Presumably, you would have no problem with society ending your life because you offer nothing of value to the rest of us? And yet, I wonder if you mother would not weep over her loss. If so, isn't that evidence that your life (even if limited) would produce greater happiness for her than your death?

One other point: how much personal growth do people experience through the sacrifice required to care for people like those you wish to be rid of? Isn't there some utilitarian value to an invalid who needs to be washed, dressed and fed each day? His caretaker has a job. His family learns patience and self-sacrifice. In this way, he is being useful by being useless.

Matthew 6:26
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

[dtq123]

(Mah Quote thing isn't working. Then again Windows 10 really screwed things up.)
**Manual Quote Activate**

But then I wonder...what happens to you if you should become injured or ill or suffer a stroke? Presumably, you would have no problem with society ending your life because you offer nothing of value to the rest of us? And yet, I wonder if you mother would not weep over her loss. If so, isn't that evidence that your life (even if limited) would produce greater happiness for her than your death?

I constantly worry if I'm good enough, and would rather be dead than a waste to society. Kinda what happens when you believe that god doesn't exist.

One other point: how much personal growth do people experience through the sacrifice required to care for people like those you wish to be rid of? Isn't there some utilitarian value to an invalid who needs to be washed, dressed and fed each day? His caretaker has a job. His family learns patience and self-sacrifice. In this way, he is being useful by being useless.

**Note taken, Lessons are learned by caring for those who cannot support themselves**
I will find a way to put this into my patchwork system. Again, this is just a "Mind Game" if you will.

Matthew 6:26
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

Birds still hunt. We still hunt.

It's kill or be killed.

Yes Flowey, Except it's nature that kills, not any sentient being.

[Baruch]

dtq123 ... I think you imply you are a marginal Christian.  Not that there is anything wrong with that.  But many religions rely on shame or guilt ... it isn't a Christian monopoly.  But what does that have to do with work?  Do you think that unless you work while in school, you aren't doing your part?  Most parents are content to tell you ... that school is your job.  That and a few other things at home, which pay a small compensation, so that you learn a little about the adult world (professors obviously never grow up, they never leave school).

I did only a few household chores and got a very small allowance.  Until I got a paper route, and my parents helped me a lot with that, I wasn't all by myself getting the newspapers ready to drop.  Later I did a little work in roofing, with a classmate ... that was before I developed acrophobia!  Worked two summers while in college ... both at Coors.  Unless your family is in dire need, I don't see you doing much work, but you could help out at a food kitchen.  Just make sure you don't ditch class and you do your homework.  After all, until you get a car, you can't drive to work very easily.

[dtq123]

Quotes are working again.

dtq123 ... I think you imply you are a marginal Christian.

o.o
I am an atheist. Next!

In response to everything else, it's just part of my moral system. Unless I maximize my output, society should treat me as less than a normal person.

[gentle_dissident]

Unless I maximize my output, society should treat me as less than a normal person.

Oh, Archie.

[marom1963]

I mean literally everything about work, from how to define it, to it's value in society, to how to measure it, to why it exists.

Let's start off with the basics of the thread itself:
1. Though I don't mind having other people post, I would like all comments to be serious.
2. I have the right to ignore any posts I don't like by simply scrolling past them.

Alright, now let's start with "conversation starters". (Please Answer these, and feel free to add anything as needed)

1. "How do you define work, if there can be one?"
2. "What is the value of work, if there is any?"
3. "How do you measure work, if you even should?"
4. "Why does it exist, or does it not?"

a. Work is anything that produces one of the following goods: Happiness, Knowledge, or Physical Items.
b. Work is first in my book, along with efficiency, and productivity.
c. I gave a ratio before, and will repeat it now.
==The greater the number, the higher value of work. (Note that this equation is incomplete/WIP)
Efficiency ratio: Goods/ Hours of Work
Value of Work: Productivity * Efficiency
**Goods is basically unusable until I figure out fair measurement of happiness and knowledge. Physical goods is easy to measure efficiency for, so those will likely be used in examples.
d. Work exists for several reasons based on the type of work:
Physical Work is easy, it's for survival. Intellectual work is also easy, it's to improve the chance of survival in the future. Emotional Work (Happiness) is more debatable, but ultimately comes down to the fact that when we are happy, we live longer. The less emotionally stable a person is, the more likely that the instability will spread, as well as lower (though not eliminate the) productivity of that person.

From here we will slowly transition to types of government and how they relate to work.

The purpose of existence is to be one's Self in a World that is extremely hostile to any such endeavor. Work is the effort that one puts into reaching that goal. All else is either a waste of time or the toll that one must pay to be tolerated by Society (aka, the Dragon-In-The-Doorway).

Any work that one does not do to satisfy one's own needs is a complete waste of time.

Oh, you monster!

But one of my needs is to help others! How dare you call me a monster! I love other people - why would I hurt them?

Begin each day by looking in the mirror, smiling at yourself (nice, big smile), and saying aloud, "Other people are a mistake!" - Then you're ready to begin your WORK.

The job is to get from the World what you want.

Put on your costume and get ready to go do what you must do to put food on you table. And don't be grumpy about it. And don't be grudging about it. Don't take it too seriously, either. It's just putting food on the table.

Here and there, every chance you get, work on YOURSELF: read, study, practice your lines!

Who is it, what is it, how is it that I want to be? Keep that in mind at all times. Work on it every waking moment.

When you are at home, you are in your dressing room, preparing to go back on stage. Each fresh performance should be better than the last.

Slowly, painfully, however you can - acquire the costumes, props, and other wherewithal for the part that you wish to play.

If you want to be a teacher, you need a masters degree - that's a prop. Get it. But, along the way, look, act, even smell like your idea of a teacher. I've not yet gotten my masters degree (working on it), but already strangers assume that I'm a college professor. When I step out of the house, I look like a college professor, down to having my pipe in hand!

NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE WHAT YOU WANT! They will put "PhD in Mathematics" on my headstone!

[Baruch]

Quotes are working again.o.o
I am an atheist. Next!

In response to everything else, it's just part of my moral system. Unless I maximize my output, society should treat me as less than a normal person.

OK ... but the stuff about the Vietnamese Catholic Church wasn't.

I think you are pushing too hard.  Hate to see someone your age burn out ... that is the difference between good enough and maximize.

[Randy Carson]

(Mah Quote thing isn't working. Then again Windows 10 really screwed things up.)
**Manual Quote Activate**
I constantly worry if I'm good enough, and would rather be dead than a waste to society. Kinda what happens when you believe that god doesn't exist.

Sadly, you are right. Nihilism is the logical conclusion of atheism. However, you're young...too young to appreciate why your life matters, yet.

So, don't go "Kurt Cobain" on us, okay?

[gentle_dissident]

But one of my needs is to help others! How dare you call me a monster! I love other people - why would I hurt them?

Begin each day by looking in the mirror, smiling at yourself (nice, big smile), and saying aloud, "Other people are a mistake!" - Then you're ready to begin your WORK.

The job is to get from the World what you want.

Put on your costume and get ready to go do what you must do to put food on you table. And don't be grumpy about it. And don't be grudging about it. Don't take it too seriously, either. It's just putting food on the table.

Here and there, every chance you get, work on YOURSELF: read, study, practice your lines!

Who is it, what is it, how is it that I want to be? Keep that in mind at all times. Work on it every waking moment.

When you are at home, you are in your dressing room, preparing to go back on stage. Each fresh performance should be better than the last.

I understand the irony of altruism being selfish, but what if one steps outside of their comfort zone to provide assistance?

I understand "fake it 'till you make it". I've been there briefly a couple of times because of some girl. I plead temporary blood loss to the brain. Posers are pathetic. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to be around them. Yes, the way society is conducted, they're everywhere. They call me a "drop out". They're visibly nervous around me if they're away from the pack.

When you are at home, you are in your dressing room, preparing to go back on stage. Each fresh performance should be better than the last.

I knew a drag queen who lived by this. She won Miss Gay Oklahoma. I think she just won a national prize.

[Baruch]

I understand the irony of altruism being selfish, but what if one steps outside of their comfort zone to provide assistance?

I understand "fake it 'till you make it". I've been there briefly a couple of times because of some girl. I plead temporary blood loss to the brain. Posers are pathetic. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to be around them. Yes, the way society is conducted, they're everywhere. They call me a "drop out". They're visibly nervous around me if they're away from the pack.
I knew a drag queen who lived by this. She won Miss Gay Oklahoma. I think she just won a national prize.

We are all drag queens ... because human existence is a real drag ;-)  And everyone is a drama queen as well.

[gentle_dissident]

She's won Best Interview nationally. My GF informs me that Miss Teekee Larue is about to compete nationally again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaHsR3vyLcc

[doorknob]

Well there's a difference between pulling your share of weight and working your self into a death just to prove you're worth while. Life isn't about work alone it's about balance. Every thing in moderation including work. It's good to work but also do something your good at and you love. That is the secret to a happy life. Many people do not have that option though. Sadly some must get what ever work they can. Out side of that what is the point of living if all you are worth is out put out put out put. If that's the case not only is it depressing but I don't want to live a life like that. Hey I like productivity as much as the next guy but sometimes you need to smell the roses too. Also there's nothing better than relaxing after a hard day of work. You've got to find a way to enjoy life while including work in it to make life worth while.

and who said nihilism is the logical out come of atheism? That's funny because it's no where even close to true. The atheists I know do not believe that at all, and nihilism has nothing to do with atheism. If you don't believe in god you are an atheist that simple. Other wise we are as different as there are stars in the sky. There's no rules to atheism. While it does seem we agree on many subjects there are area's where we all go our separate ways. Hell you can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts or other supernatural things. While that's odd and rare it's possible.

You're treating atheism like it's a religion well news flash it's not! There are no teachings on atheism. There are no unwritten rules. Simply stop believing in god and that is what makes you an atheist. Other wise stop trying to put atheists into some kind of box.

[marom1963]

I understand the irony of altruism being selfish, but what if one steps outside of their comfort zone to provide assistance?

I understand "fake it 'till you make it". I've been there briefly a couple of times because of some girl. I plead temporary blood loss to the brain. Posers are pathetic. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to be around them. Yes, the way society is conducted, they're everywhere. They call me a "drop out". They're visibly nervous around me if they're away from the pack.
I knew a drag queen who lived by this. She won Miss Gay Oklahoma. I think she just won a national prize.

It all depends on what you want from the World. If you've got to put on a show, well, then, put on a show. What's wrong w/that? You call such people "posers" - well, so, what? I'd rather be a happy poser than an unhappy "genuine article." I'm getting old. I haven't got time for bullshit. I want to enjoy myself. I'll tap dance in a muumuu, if necessary. I like having money in my bank account. I like being solvent. I don't care if people think I'm full of it. Anyone who doesn't put food on my table has no say over who and what and how I am. I don't want just to survive. That isn't good enough. I want to be comfortable. I deserve it - everyone does. But I won't settle for less, if I don't have to settle for less.

[dtq123]

Every thing in moderation including work. It's good to work but also do something your good at and you love. That is the secret to a happy life.

I legitimately laughed out loud in real life. Isn't that the same thing as finding work you love for the better of society?

Sadly, you are right. Nihilism is the logical conclusion of atheism.

"Logical" to a point. There is a step after called "finding your purpose," which I admit is taken straight from Christianity in my case.


Edit:

Also there's nothing better than relaxing after a hard day of work. You've got to find a way to enjoy life while including work in it to make life worth while.

Though I don't find solace in relaxation, I understand others do. Hence why happiness is a metric in my "society."

If it produces and/or spreads happiness, it is worthwhile.

Though, it's still work to me, cause happiness is work on the mind.

[Baruch]

#1 There is a dialectic between work and play ... and it is political.  My work is your play and vice versa.

#2 A lot of what people like to do, doesn't leave society neutral, it makes society worse.  Hedonism much?  See #1.

#3 Baby Boomers were told to self actuate and find our bliss.  This didn't work out too well.  Basically it means to become a coke snorting stock trader.

#4 Relaxation is work, if you meditate.

#5 Many people find happiness in drugs and alcohol.  Einstein said, if all you live for is happiness, then your life isn't worth living.  MLK says, if you don't find something worth dying for, and die for it, then you aren't fully human.