One Question, One Response (aka - Stump the Apologist)

[Randy Carson]

Would you care for an extended dialogue with me sometime? Perhaps throughout this following week if possible. The fact that you aren't banned has shown that you are a creative person who has mastered his craft. (What craft that is would be debatable among my peers here, but I consider it a good thing to a fair extent)

Do note that the dialogue is going to be multi-topic (which will encompass several threads as we complete them) and will deal with morals, but not necessary religious one's.

Personally, It's been a dull time around here, too much echo chamber. I also recognize that answers previously given by you may not have been out of best judgement due to the somewhat harsh criticism of my peers here.

Pardon my extremely formal speech/text, but I feel that it is necessary to get my point across.

Now, for an introduction for what you need to know.

I am a young atheist, but am somewhat of a heretical one. I current live in PST and go to school. I live in a religious family and stay home from church (whom my parents and aunt's/uncle's family goes), but stay home with my Buddhist Grandparents, both Maternal and Paternal. I have read the bible to it's entirety, though that was a year ago. I have been an atheist since 13 years of age. In wake of your presence I have re-read Christian rhetoric and thought, as well as a brief study of the many sects and schisms of Christianity.

However, I am not interested in a debate. I want to build upon each other, since I do not feel that I can achieve progress with those who are similar to me any longer.

I would be happy to chat with you as much as you like either in this thread or in any other. I will answer every one of your questions to the best of my ability. When I don't know the answer, I will admit that. I may refer you to others so that you can see what they have to say if I cannot respond adequately.

It sounds like you are a highschool student. You mention that you are being raised in a "religious family" and that you stay home from Church. Your grandparents are Buddhists...but what church do your parents attend?

Finally, if you have an opening question you'd like to ask, I'm ready when you are. I look forward to our discussion.

[Randy Carson]

Do I need to believe in god and follow the christian bible in order to get myself into heaven?

Normatively, yes, but not absolutely. Here is an analogy:

In America, driving on the right hand side of the road has a necessity of precept because the law requires us to do so. However, it is also necessary as a means because if one wishes to safely navigate the highways in America then one must drive on the right hand side of the road. If you wish to arrive safely at your destination, the means to that end is driving on the right hand side.

Thus driving on the right side of the road is a normative necessity by precept (because the law normally requires it) and a normative necessity of means (because it is normally necessary to safely arrive at one's destination). However, it is not an absolute necessity of precept (because the law makes exceptions for emergencies) or an absolute necessity of means (because safely arriving at one's destination sometimes requires a swerve into the other lane as an emergency maneuver).

When it comes to the question of being a Catholic, that is both a necessity of precept and a necessity of means. It is a necessity of precept because God commands it, for "the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ," Lumen Gentium 14 (CCC 846). It is a necessity of means because the Catholic Church is the sacrament of salvation for mankind, containing all the means of grace. "As sacrament, the Church is Christ's instrument. 'She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all,' 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' by which Christ is 'at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God's love for men'" (CCC 776, citing Vatican II's Lumen Gentium 9:2, 48:2, and Gaudiam et Spes 45:1).

Taken from:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447

The tricky part of this, Johan, is that you know enough of God and the Bible to have formulated the question at all. Consequently, it is incumbent upon you to form your conscience properly by pursuing an answer to your own question. Claiming "invincible ignorance" will be a risky strategy on judgment day.

[dtq123]

I would be happy to chat with you as much as you like either in this thread or in any other. I will answer every one of your questions to the best of my ability. When I don't know the answer, I will admit that. I may refer you to others so that you can see what they have to say if I cannot respond adequately.

It sounds like you are a highschool student. You mention that you are being raised in a "religious family" and that you stay home from Church. Your grandparents are Buddhists...but what church do your parents attend?

Finally, if you have an opening question you'd like to ask, I'm ready when you are. I look forward to our discussion.

Ah, several things.

1. I also admit when I don't know, though I sometimes confuse assumptions for fact, so do point those out.

2. Vietnamese Catholic Parish is the church that my parents go. Or I think it's the name, since I can't read Vietnamese quite well

3. For reference for our first talk, please read the following in it's entirety within the next two hours (or three if need be):
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10051.0
If your prefer a TL;DR Version here it is:
I am a secular work oriented person who is trying to figure ways to help people become more productive in life. Life should not be free, it must be paid for with a contribution to society. Another forum goer has pointed that this is too utopian and I have dropped the topic realizing that fact. However, I want to learn a perspective of work from a Christian...

After Breakfast and some homework!

[Johan]

The tricky part of this, Johan, is that you know enough of God and the Bible to have formulated the question at all. Consequently, it is incumbent upon you to form your conscience properly by pursuing an answer to your own question. Claiming "invincible ignorance" will be a risky strategy on judgment day.

So are you saying that one could be granted entry into heaven if for instance, they lived in a remote tribe with little to know outside contact and therefore were never aware of the existence of god or the bible?

[Randy Carson]

Ah, several things.

1. I also admit when I don't know, though I sometimes confuse assumptions for fact, so do point those out.

2. Vietnamese Catholic Parish is the church that my parents go. Or I think it's the name, since I can't read Vietnamese quite well

3. For reference for our first talk, please read the following in it's entirety within the next two hours (or three if need be):
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10051.0
If your prefer a TL;DR Version here it is:
I am a secular work oriented person who is trying to figure ways to help people become more productive in life. Life should not be free, it must be paid for with a contribution to society. Another forum goer has pointed that this is too utopian and I have dropped the topic realizing that fact. However, I want to learn a perspective of work from a Christian...

After Breakfast and some homework!

Okay, I've just finished reading the thread. Not thoughtfully analyzing it, of course, but enough to see what has been discussed.

I, too, have some chores to take care of today. I will look for an opening question in our discussion throughout the day.

May I recommend that we either start a new thread or continue in that other one? I'd like for this one to remain open for people who want to ask me a variety of questions.

Let me know what you decide.

Thanks.

[Randy Carson]

So are you saying that one could be granted entry into heaven if for instance, they lived in a remote tribe with little to know outside contact and therefore were never aware of the existence of god or the bible?

It's possible. Kinda makes you wonder why we bother to send missionaries, doesn't it?

Well, the answer to that question is that we were told to do so here:

Matthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another.

Can you imagine how this world would be radically transformed if everyone lived by the motto, "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Isn't it true that many people are wounded, hurt and filled with bitterness and anger in this life because they have not been treated well by others? So, they lash out in anger. And the cycle of violence affects all of us.

So, evangelizing is not merely about getting people saved in the end, it's also about transforming the society in which we live here and now until we are all at home with Him.

[marom1963]

It's possible. Kinda makes you wonder why we bother to send missionaries, doesn't it?

Well, the answer to that question is that we were told to do so here:

But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another.

Can you imagine how this world would be radically transformed if everyone lived by the motto, "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Isn't it true that many people are wounded, hurt and filled with bitterness and anger in this life because they have not been treated well by others? So, they lash out in anger. And the cycle of violence affects all of us.

So, evangelizing is not merely about getting people saved in the end, it's also about transforming the society in which we live here and now until we are all at home with Him.

Christianity has had 2000 years to spread its manure and, thus far, all that has sprouted has been weeds.

[stromboli]

Christianity has 2000 years to spread its manure and, thus far, all that has sprouted has been weeds.

Well look at it this way. You can't have a Renaissance if you don't first have a Dark Ages. 

[21CIconoclast]

Randy,

YOUR QUOTE: "But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another."

HUH? How can you now state that your Savior is loving when you earlier and explicitly called him earlier a "moral monster?!"  Please explain!

Barring Randy being a hypocrite momentarily, as shown above by falling off the tracks again, I seriously have to hand it to him earlier when his blatant ignorance was shown relative to his primitive bible, and in this case, where he was schooled upon the biblical fact that Christians are to follow the Old Testament, they can judge others, and that he has committed the Unpardonable Sin, he at least admits it!

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10065.15  Reply #24

All Atheists should be happy that Randy is slowly coming to terms with his primitive Catholic faith, where we are making headway for Randy to jettison his Bronze and Iron Age cult of Catholicism and leave this pacifier behind, praise!

[Mike Cl]

What a forgiving creature. Left them to rot as slaves, freeing them after how long? Couldn't cut them some slack? Cheap bastard.

All of that, and the Promised Land was already occupied.  Since these occupants were human and of this Earth, I'd suspect god created them.  So, he owned them and could do what he goddamned well wanted to.  Wasting them was no big deal--all in a days work; and child's play according what he had to do for the Flood.  A few times around Jericho and Joshua, the Savior, got to be the instrument of all that destruction; but it's all good, none of the good guys died.  Man, those must have been the good old days for him--now all he gets to do is rig up things like 9/11 or Katrina.   

[stromboli]

All of that, and the Promised Land was already occupied.  Since these occupants were human and of this Earth, I'd suspect god created them.  So, he owned them and could do what he goddamned well wanted to.  Wasting them was no big deal--all in a days work; and child's play according what he had to do for the Flood.  A few times around Jericho and Joshua, the Savior, got to be the instrument of all that destruction; but it's all good, none of the good guys died.  Man, those must have been the good old days for him--now all he gets to do is rig up things like 9/11 or Katrina.   

And Jesus' face on toast. Remember, Jesus is toast. 

[Mike Cl]

And Jesus' face on toast. Remember, Jesus is toast. 

Yeah--when your're bored, you do all kinds of things.

[Johan]

It's possible. Kinda makes you wonder why we bother to send missionaries, doesn't it?

Well, the answer to that question is that we were told to do so here:

So god commands you to in a sense, damn people to hell by requiring you to spread the word. They can get into heaven if they're ignorant, but once you spill the beans, their choices are bow down and worship him or burn in hell. Nice. I hope you sleep well at night knowing how many souls you've damned.

But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another.

Hmm... I have no relationship with any kind of savior loving or otherwise, and yet my relationships with other people are just fine. Very stress free life, a few good friends, lots more colleagues and acquaintances that I get along with just peachy and a very healthy and rewarding relationship with my wife in a marriage that's been going strong for over 10 years now. Guess I must be doing something wrong.

Isn't it true that many people are wounded, hurt and filled with bitterness and anger in this life because they have not been treated well by others?

It is. Gay people for example. And women. Let's not forget women. Absolutely horrible how the bible motivates people to treat women and gay people like dirt.

So, evangelizing is not merely about getting people saved in the end, it's also about transforming the society in which we live here and now until we are all at home with Him.

Well obviously I disagree but its good to have a dream so by all means, keep on dreaming.

Ok so follow up question. God sent his son here to spread the word and whatnot so that we could all be saved. So what fate awaited all the people who lived and died before jesus came for his first and so far only visit? I mean, were they all just fucked from the get go?

[Randy Carson]

Christianity has had 2000 years to spread its manure and, thus far, all that has sprouted has been weeds.

Opinions differ, but the positive impact of the Catholic Church on western civilization is recognized by all but the most polemic of partisans.

[Randy Carson]

Well look at it this way. You can't have a Renaissance if you don't first have a Dark Ages.

The term "Dark Ages" originally was intended to denote the entire period between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance; the term "Middle Ages" has a similar motivation, implying an intermediate period between Classical Antiquity and the Modern era. In the 19th century scholars began to recognize the accomplishments made during the period, thereby challenging the image of the Middle Ages as a time of darkness and decay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)

IOW, your understanding is not very "enlightened".