One Question, One Response (aka - Stump the Apologist)

[Randy Carson]

Elsewhere, it has been alleged that I am avoiding answering direct questions. I deny this, and I'd like to lay this calumny to rest once and for all.

As is true in all threads, but fastidiously so in this one, I will answer any and all questions asked of me to the best of my ability concerning Christianity, Catholicism, the New Testament and related topics, proofs, evidence, arguments, as well as historical and current events, etc.

Here are the ground rules:

1. Limit one open question per forum member.
2. I will reply with one response which will close the question.
3. If you want to ask a follow up, you may do so after everyone ahead of you has been answered. No cutting in line.

This offer is made as a good faith gesture to the forum. If no one wishes to participate, then so be it, but the charge that I do not answer direct questions will have lost its teeth.

[Shiranu]

Bah, I wanted to take this opportunity to ask something completely ridiculous and hilarious, to make a complete joke of your offer, but you know what? I'll play along.

I am somewhat indifferent on the scientific and "rational" proving or disproving of your god because I do not believe such a thing can be possible until we die. While the god of the Bible, as he is written, is an impossibility... I do not rule out that such a being could exist, however unlikely, in some form or another and the Bible was simply as close as some Middle Eastern tribes, and later European revisionists in the Holy Roman Empire, could come to understand him (or exploit his power for their own gain).

I prefer to concern myself with, instead of intellectual debate of god or what will happen to me when I die, with what will make me a better person now, in this world, and what will make my neighbours a better person. Not just in act, but in their heart... to genuinely care and love for one another and ourselves. I think anything that gives us this ability is inherently useful to some extent. So, given this... what does Christianity offer me that cannot be found in any other religion, or even philosophies that preach nearly the same thing sans dogma? What would make Christianity more valuable to me than drugs that open up my mind, that do not preach that I should hate my neighbour because he does not pray like me or is attracted to the same sex as me, amongst hundreds of other things the Bible tells us to hate our neighbour for? It seems the only way Christianity can offer me a better life is if I cherry pick 80%+ of the Christianity out of it, and at that point does it warrant being called Christianity? (Sorry, that is kinda 3 questions but they all have one single over-arching gist).

[Randy Carson]

Bah, I wanted to take this opportunity to ask something completely ridiculous and hilarious, to make a complete joke of your offer, but you know what? I'll play along.

I am somewhat indifferent on the scientific and "rational" proving or disproving of your god because I do not believe such a thing can be possible until we die. While the god of the Bible, as he is written, is an impossibility... I do not rule out that such a being could exist, however unlikely, in some form or another and the Bible was simply as close as some Middle Eastern tribes, and later European revisionists in the Holy Roman Empire, could come to understand him (or exploit his power for their own gain).

I prefer to concern myself with, instead of intellectual debate of god or what will happen to me when I die, with what will make me a better person now, in this world, and what will make my neighbours a better person. Not just in act, but in their heart... to genuinely care and love for one another and ourselves. I think anything that gives us this ability is inherently useful to some extent. So, given this... what does Christianity offer me that cannot be found in any other religion, or even philosophies that preach nearly the same thing sans dogma? What would make Christianity more valuable to me than drugs that open up my mind, that do not preach that I should hate my neighbour because he does not pray like me or is attracted to the same sex as me, amongst hundreds of other things the Bible tells us to hate our neighbour for? It seems the only way Christianity can offer me a better life is if I cherry pick 80%+ of the Christianity out of it, and at that point does it warrant being called Christianity? (Sorry, that is kinda 3 questions but they all have one single over-arching gist).

No problem, Shiranu. Asking one question in multiple ways for clarification is a positive thing. And I commend you for taking the high road and asking such a profound question.

Your references to "hating our neighbor" make we wonder if you have actually read the Bible or if you have simply picked up bits and pieces of the Old Testament from Internet forums and blogs. Jesus' moral teaching is considered by many to be truly profound, and even if you do not accept the miracles or resurrection, there is much wisdom in what he had to say. I'd recommend reading the gospel of Matthew for this because it contains a lot of Jesus' teaching in very clear passages. You can read the whole thing in a single sitting of about two hours or so, or you can break it up into smaller chunks and go at your own pace. Either way, I think you will find Jesus to be a profound thinker and teacher.

Now, that addresses the "head knowledge" of Christianity, but you asked how Christianity can bring about the "heart change" needed to become a better person in this life. The good news, Shiranu, is that this is precisely what God wants to do in all of us. When a person becomes a believer in Christ and is baptized, he "dies" with Christ and is "born again". Paul explained this to the believers in Corinth:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

This was promised in the Old Testament when God spoke through the prophet Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Notice that God says that He will put a new spirit in us? This is the promise of the Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within a believer.

Paul also told the believers in Ephesus:

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possessionâ€"to the praise of his glory.

It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are able to live as new creations. And that's a good thing, because we already know that it is so hard to love our neighbors purely on our own strength, don't we?

So, the teaching of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit He promised to send to those who believe in him: these give new life to those who seek them and enable us to love others as God has first loved us.

Try giving Matthew a read. If you don't own a Bible, you can find it online here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mt+1&version=NIV

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Another chance for a propaganda thread? Please, keep doing them, it keeps you off the street.

[stromboli]

Another chance for a propaganda thread? Please, keep doing them, it keeps you off the street.

I was just going to ask him to prove Exodus happened but- nah.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I was just going to ask him to prove Exodus happened but- nah.

"Exodus", the story of a whole nation of people who never existed using a God that doesn't exist to escape from a bondage that never happened and wander around a large parking lot for 40 years when a person could walk over the entire peninsula in 2.5 years?

It must be true, it's in the Bible!

[marom1963]

Elsewhere, it has been alleged that I am avoiding answering direct questions. I deny this, and I'd like to lay this calumny to rest once and for all.

As is true in all threads, but fastidiously so in this one, I will answer any and all questions asked of me to the best of my ability concerning Christianity, Catholicism, the New Testament and related topics, proofs, evidence, arguments, as well as historical and current events, etc.

Here are the ground rules:

1. Limit one open question per forum member.
2. I will reply with one response which will close the question.
3. If you want to ask a follow up, you may do so after everyone ahead of you has been answered. No cutting in line.

This offer is made as a good faith gesture to the forum. If no one wishes to participate, then so be it, but the charge that I do not answer direct questions will have lost its teeth.

Selling Christianity to atheists is like selling ice to Eskimos - so, why do you bother, is it some sort of mitzvah on your part, a good deed, as it were, the desire to save our souls? Let God do his own dirty work for a change. He's one lazy bastard, if you ask me. He could miracle all of us into believers, if he wanted.

[Randy Carson]

I was just going to ask him to prove Exodus happened but- nah.

That would be a tall order.

However, I will recommend that you consider watching a documentary on NetFlix entitled Patterns of Evidence: Exodus.

The general premise is that yes, there is evidence that the Hebrews were in Egypt but it's been overlooked because Egyptologists have been looking for it in the wrong era of Egyptian history.  I found a website which contains this synopsis:

"The film suggests the biblical text included these geographical references so that readers would know the land of Goshen where the Hebrews lived was at the city of Avaris, which is near the city of Ramses. Because Ramsesâ€"meaning “the Egyptian god Ra gave birth to him”â€"was a very common name to honor pharaohs, it may have become associated with property in this region long before any of eleven pharaohs known as Ramses or the Ramses the Great became specifically associated with the land. In any case, when archaeologists look in the region of the New Kingdom city of Ramses in deeper layers associated with the older “Middle Kingdom,” they find a wealth of archaeological and textual support for the historicity of the Exodus just as the Bible records it."



"This illustration from the book Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus is similar to those in the film. Here the upper wall of time shows the traditional view of Egyptian chronology and the “late Exodus” view, which places the Exodus at about 1250 BC, during the reign of Ramses the Great. (The reign of Ramses the Great, who built many monuments, is indicated in the 1200s BC by a graphic “monument city” on the wall.) The colored blocks indicate events such as the arrival of Joseph’s family in Egypt, their multiplication and enslavement, the events directly related to the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan. Archaeological evidence for these events is not found when the search is made for it in material related to that timeframe of history, but if the timeframe is shifted backward (white arrow) about two centuries toward Egypt’s Middle Kingdom, and the Exodus is placed around 1450 BC, archaeology tells another story. This is shown in the lower illustration. Image courtesy of Timothy Mahoney, Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus."

https://answersingenesis.org/reviews/movies/movie-review-patterns-of-evidence-exodus/

+++

You may not agree with the conclusion, but it is an interesting presentation.

[Randy Carson]

Selling Christianity to atheists is like selling ice to Eskimos - so, why do you bother, is it some sort of mitzvah on your part, a good deed, as it were, the desire to save our souls? Let God do his own dirty work for a change. He's one lazy bastard, if you ask me. He could miracle all of us into believers, if he wanted.

Eskimos already have ice. Atheists do not already have faith in God.

That said, God cannot "miracle" you into believers without violating your free will.

[Randy Carson]

"Exodus", the story of a whole nation of people who never existed using a God that doesn't exist to escape from a bondage that never happened and wander around a large parking lot for 40 years when a person could walk over the entire peninsula in 2.5 years?

It must be true, it's in the Bible!

It's not that the Israelites couldn't have walked to Canaan in less than 40 years; it's that God did not permit them to do so until all of the generation which had worshiped the golden calf had died. None of these were permitted to enter the Promised Land.

[marom1963]

Eskimos already have ice. Atheists do not already have faith in God.

That said, God cannot "miracle" you into believers without violating your free will.

If we have free will, then he can't punish us for our sins, either, but that doesn't stop him, does it?

[Randy Carson]

If we have free will, then he can't punish us for our sins, either, but that doesn't stop him, does it?

If you have free will, then you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices.

Your parents punished you when you were a child. Police officers issue speeding tickets if you drive too fast. Judges send you to jail if you kill someone.

So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient.

[marom1963]

If you have free will, then you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices.

Your parents punished you when you were a child. Police officers issue speeding tickets if you drive too fast. Judges send you to jail if you kill someone.

So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make.

Oh, God's a cop, is he? Well, then, he's been laying down on the job and should be busted back down to street patrol.
My parents were decent human beings, not some cosmic scum-bag that belongs in Hell being roasted by Satan as punishment for the filth of his own existence. If the THING called God exists, then nothing lower and more vile and reprehensible ever existed.

[Randy Carson]

Oh, God's a cop, is he? Well, then, he's been laying down on the job and should be busted back down to street patrol.
My parents were decent human beings, not some cosmic scum-bag that belongs in Hell being roasted by Satan as punishment for the filth of his own existence. If the THING called God exists, then nothing lower and more vile and reprehensible ever existed.

Thank you for sharing your views. Would you like to ask a related question?

[leo]

What's the speed of Chuck Norris roundhouse kick ?