Why are we all supposed to be equal?

[Baruch]

"No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land."

Unless he's lazy.  As determined by me.

dtq123 needs to become a pater, before he can be clan head (pater familias).  Then he can discipline his clan, make wars on other clans, and try not to be killed by disgruntled clan members ... aka to be President of the USA.

[doorknob]

Rights have nothing to do with being lazy or diligent. Rights are a humanitarian thing. And every one deserves equal human rights period.

As for in other area's then sure lazy people get about what they deserve and are probably happy with it or they'd do something different. Unless it's effecting you directly and even then sometimes there's not much you can do to change it.

One last food for thought

How do you determine who is lazy and who is just incompetent? What's your opinion on stupid people. it's not their fault they aren't mentally capable of the same things you are. Do they deserve any less human rights than you do?

[dtq123]

"No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land."

Unless he's lazy.  As determined by me.

Though I do admire the satirical pun at the end, I wholeheartedly disagree.

There is one of several things wrong with your "claim" as you will. As the majority of the confusion for my arguments came from myself, let me give some definitions.

Work: The total product of a person's value through their work-ratio.

Work-Ratio: The amount of time spent on the wellbeing of others or one's self in relation to recreational acts.

(Basically Hours of actions that benefit your survival or the community's survival compared to Hours of actions that solely are for recreational purposes.)

Now with some definitions pinned down, I would also like to address the fact that I myself will not personally sit down and rate everyone of a "Work Ethic" Scale. That would require countless amount of logs and monitors to supervise in addition to too much subjective work.

As for Mr.Obvious, I think my expanded definition means we have no more problems?

"Living off" and "Waste" are two different things. People can still be productive even if not employed.

Again, my apologies for any confusion.

::UPDATE AS OF 5:21 DOORKNOB HAS POSTED::

And I was about to end my post too.

Let me ask you a quick questions. Would you rather give medicine to a scientist who intends to help you and other people out, or help two people who have no interest in passing out medicine and want to go back to playing games in a basement?

I am also willing to admit that my brother is very stupid, with less than par grades. What matters is that he helps around the house and wants me to help him with his homework and is doing all sorts of things to help his work. Especially letting me reduce his playtime online from 6 to 4 hours.

Baruch said it best, "Even handicapped people can work, and they do ... stop making excuses for not hiring people because they aren't Superman."

[Mike Cl]

In my line of work, i solely have clients living of mother government's teat.
Do a numbers of them scam society be being too lazy to really get out of their empoverished situations. I'd say yes.
However, i frequenly come across countrymen who label all of them or, if they are generous, 90% of them as lazy parasites. Which is just wrong. So i'm not keen onVote of popularity does not make something true.

I also often think people confuse poverty with lazyness. If you don't have any options, live in slums, got a deadbeat alcoholic dad mooching off you and bailifs and lawyers keep sucking you dry; yeah i don't think you're going to get much done. But on The surface, from our relatively in control lives and decent appartments, it's easy to say; (s)he Should just get a job. It's harder if that only gets you a hundred euro's more a month and raised your expenses a little an cuts The time you need to handle all that non-work shit.

I totally agree with this.  And add to that the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness, which adds to the burden.  I don't know about anybody else, but I do my best work when I believe people will appreciate it and I feel I'm capable of it and I feel I can build onto something.  Emotional wellness is huge in this area.

[Mike Cl]

Though I do admire the satirical pun at the end, I wholeheartedly disagree.

There is one of several things wrong with your "claim" as you will. As the majority of the confusion for my arguments came from myself, let me give some definitions.

Work: The total product of a person's value through their work-ratio.

Work-Ratio: The amount of time spent on the wellbeing of others or one's self in relation to recreational acts.

(Basically Hours of actions that benefit your survival or the community's survival compared to Hours of actions that solely are for recreational purposes.)

Now with some definitions pinned down, I would also like to address the fact that I myself will not personally sit down and rate everyone of a "Work Ethic" Scale. That would require countless amount of logs and monitors to supervise in addition to too much subjective work.

As for Mr.Obvious, I think my expanded definition means we have no more problems?

"Living off" and "Waste" are two different things. People can still be productive even if not employed.

Again, my apologies for any confusion.

::UPDATE AS OF 5:21 DOORKNOB HAS POSTED::

And I was about to end my post too.

Let me ask you a quick questions. Would you rather give medicine to a scientist who intends to help you and other people out, or help two people who have no interest in passing out medicine and want to go back to playing games in a basement?

I am also willing to admit that my brother is very stupid, with less than par grades. What matters is that he helps around the house and wants me to help him with his homework and is doing all sorts of things to help his work. Especially letting me reduce his playtime online from 6 to 4 hours.

Baruch said it best, "Even handicapped people can work, and they do ... stop making excuses for not hiring people because they aren't Superman."

You sound like a Puritan.

[gentle_dissident]

Wife beaters need a bullet to the head ... not commiseration over their prior child abuse.

Well, so much for reform. Let's do away with therapy and make prison rape mandatory.

[doorknob]

Though I do admire the satirical pun at the end, I wholeheartedly disagree.

There is one of several things wrong with your "claim" as you will. As the majority of the confusion for my arguments came from myself, let me give some definitions.

Work: The total product of a person's value through their work-ratio.

Work-Ratio: The amount of time spent on the wellbeing of others or one's self in relation to recreational acts.

(Basically Hours of actions that benefit your survival or the community's survival compared to Hours of actions that solely are for recreational purposes.)

Now with some definitions pinned down, I would also like to address the fact that I myself will not personally sit down and rate everyone of a "Work Ethic" Scale. That would require countless amount of logs and monitors to supervise in addition to too much subjective work.

As for Mr.Obvious, I think my expanded definition means we have no more problems?

"Living off" and "Waste" are two different things. People can still be productive even if not employed.

Again, my apologies for any confusion.

::UPDATE AS OF 5:21 DOORKNOB HAS POSTED::

And I was about to end my post too.

Let me ask you a quick questions. Would you rather give medicine to a scientist who intends to help you and other people out, or help two people who have no interest in passing out medicine and want to go back to playing games in a basement?

I am also willing to admit that my brother is very stupid, with less than par grades. What matters is that he helps around the house and wants me to help him with his homework and is doing all sorts of things to help his work. Especially letting me reduce his playtime online from 6 to 4 hours.

Baruch said it best, "Even handicapped people can work, and they do ... stop making excuses for not hiring people because they aren't Superman."

So you're basically saying you want to be god and judge over people. You sound very young and niave. Stop assuming every thing is black or white.

No one can ever really know what another is going through. There was a time when I was a basement gamer and thinking back on it that's all I could handle mentally and stress wise. I'm getting better mentally but not stress wise. Because I have mental illness I appear just fine you can't see what's broken while a guy missing an arm is easy to spot. I'd rather not be judged on appearances. You don't know what I'm struggling with or what's going on inside me.

It's also easy to say drug addicts are worthless kill them all which many people do. But I've been there too and it's not a simple matter of will power. And how they became a drug addict isn't always a persons fault. Many women who are sex slaves are made addicts as a way to control them. It runs in families and so on. Some people are born addicts aka mother was a pregnant crack head.

So unless you are personally involved in each and every persons life there is no way to do what you propose. Who could be responsible enough to handle such a job? You ? I think not. You over simplify things and are quick to judge. Where you see laziness I see a serious poverty problem that is complex and not fully understood until experienced for one's self.

[Mr.Obvious]

Though I do admire the satirical pun at the end, I wholeheartedly disagree.

There is one of several things wrong with your "claim" as you will. As the majority of the confusion for my arguments came from myself, let me give some definitions.

Work: The total product of a person's value through their work-ratio.

Work-Ratio: The amount of time spent on the wellbeing of others or one's self in relation to recreational acts.

(Basically Hours of actions that benefit your survival or the community's survival compared to Hours of actions that solely are for recreational purposes.)

Now with some definitions pinned down, I would also like to address the fact that I myself will not personally sit down and rate everyone of a "Work Ethic" Scale. That would require countless amount of logs and monitors to supervise in addition to too much subjective work.

As for Mr.Obvious, I think my expanded definition means we have no more problems?

"Living off" and "Waste" are two different things. People can still be productive even if not employed.

Again, my apologies for any confusion.

::UPDATE AS OF 5:21 DOORKNOB HAS POSTED::

And I was about to end my post too.

Let me ask you a quick questions. Would you rather give medicine to a scientist who intends to help you and other people out, or help two people who have no interest in passing out medicine and want to go back to playing games in a basement?

I am also willing to admit that my brother is very stupid, with less than par grades. What matters is that he helps around the house and wants me to help him with his homework and is doing all sorts of things to help his work. Especially letting me reduce his playtime online from 6 to 4 hours.

Baruch said it best, "Even handicapped people can work, and they do ... stop making excuses for not hiring people because they aren't Superman."

Well, bar from the suggestions of taking away people's rights, I'm not saying we ever had problems.
Let me clarify. I understand that what you are getting at isn't the total productivity of someone towards society, but more in the lines of productivity of someone towards society relative to their capabilities en opportunities. I've always understood that in your posts. And in part, I don't disagree. Strong shoulders, imo, should bare more weight. But this does not excuse everyone from doing their bit. And while I don't follow you in taking away things like the right to due process, I get the feeling we are in agreement in that we all have a responsibility to our fellow man and society as a grander whole and that it's reasonable in expecting people to put some effort into that.

However, not counting that in your utopian society one could be declared lazy and thus, for example, be outlawed without due process wether or not one actually is lazy (as someone who is concidered lazy does not have right to due process...), the problem I mentioned before still stands.
You yourself say that you wouldn't be the one declaring who is lazy and who isn't. So it doesn't matter that you concider someone's work-worth in accordance to their personal situation. The problem is that a lot of people don't think in that nuance. And that as such, popular opinion on what can and can't be concidered lazy or selfish, which in my experience is wrong, would be the judgement that counts. Not yours personally.
Is everyone to get a psychology-test every now and again to see how much they can bare? Are we going to quantify someone's living-situation, depression and all manner of everyday problems and personal history? Problem isn't that you don't think people have value unless they work and provide. Problem is that the general populus can think like that. And that until you get to know the person behind the statistic, it's all to easy to dismiss poverty of opportunities as lazyness. Problem isn't the utopian society you are painting (except, again, the bit about taking away people's rights), it's the distopian atrocity I think it would become if you were to leave fantasy and try to execute the idea in reality.

[Baruch]

Well, so much for reform. Let's do away with therapy and make prison rape mandatory.

No prison necessary ... just shoot them.  Prisons don't reform, and psych doesn't reform.  People don't reform.  They start out as babies, and develop in countless ways.  Some ways we like, some ways we don't like.  People continue to develop, but with some conditions, particularly old age ... they regress at bit or a lot.  The judicial model of reality is simply society getting its sadism on.  This is not to say that I approve of locking anyone up for any particular reason.  And my suggestion to shoot people ... because they are too annoying (Billy the Kid did this to a guy who was snoring once) ... is hyperbolic.  Puritans and SJW are all nut cases.

If you want to reform prison, let all the inmates out ... and put the politicians in ;-)

[dtq123]

You sound very young and naive.

You don't know what I'm struggling with or what's going on inside me.

I agree. I am very young and naïve. That's why I post. I don't know what you struggle with. I want to try to understand.

So unless you are personally involved in each and every persons life there is no way to do what you propose. Who could be responsible enough to handle such a job? You? I think not. You over simplify things and are quick to judge. Where you see laziness I see a serious poverty problem that is complex and not fully understood until experienced for one's self.

1. I wholeheartedly agree that it would require a person or being with a large amount surveillance capabilities to make this a reality.
2. I would like to have a computer do the job, but that's most likely not going to happen in my lifetime.
3. I understand that poverty is an issue, and that basement gaming is sometimes a necessity.

I feel enlightened by your response. I think the key issue is the amount of effort from those who already have the capacity to do things, such as the middle and upper classes. Fact is, the majority of lower class families are more hard working that those above them.

I am sorry if I frustrate and/or confuse you. My doctor example was a poor one. Too many implicit assumptions there.

Edit:
Drug addicts are a fine example of great people who are stigmatized by the current society, but will get better stance in the society I proposed. Even with drug addiction, they still attempt to move on with life as if nothing happened. It's amazing most addicts are alive if they hadn't killed themselves after seeing the true horror of drugs.

As for basement dwellers? I would like to call them "Ludophiles," for they give the world something that cannot be done with the traditional sense of work: Creativity and Happiness. Most "Basement Dwellers" I know are actually decent people who simply cannot handle social pressure of the outside world. If we learn to value gaming a bit more, we'd all see them as hermits who love gaming... Or you know.... Ludophiles.

[dtq123]

Mr. Obvious: Think Psycho-Pass except it's an actually good society with a single AI.

Mike_Cl: I am overstressed as of late, so do mind that I may regret this. I also lost my counselor due to them moving to a different department and waiting for a new one now. So this is basically a mind dump of sorts. Except I legitimately think it might work.

gentle_dissident & Baruch: What now?

[Mike Cl]

dtq123 you are trying or want to create a utopia.  Those are nice.  I have spent time trying to mentally craft one or two.  And I also like to read about them.  What I have learned, though, is that they never work.  Humans are just not that easy to understand nor put into neat little boxes or packages where they are easily controlled.
      As a young teacher I worked with a guy for a year that commuted about 2 hrs one way--he lived in Willits, CA, in a commune in which all were equal--in as many aspects as possible.  He lived in a tipi, as did most of the others.  They shared all they had in value--all property, real and personal (except for the very personal stuff like underwear and mementos and stuff like that).  He even gave up his entire paycheck to them.  They ate in a communal area, shared in the grunt work, the garden, the sanitation, and the like.  He was with our school for a year.  And he lasted in the commune one more year--left for he grew tired of others not pulling their weight.  At one time communes were everywhere.  As far as I know very few, if any, still exist. 

If you have the chance read 1984, Brave New World and/or Anthem.  They are all short and are even considered classic.  It will just give you a different view of 'value'. 

[dtq123]

dtq123 you are trying or want to create a utopia.  Those are nice.  I have spent time trying to mentally craft one or two.

>.> Basically it. I'm just discussing the ethical nature of what I am proposing.

[Mike Cl]

>.> Basically it. I'm just discussing the ethical nature of what I am proposing.

Then reading those who have tried to craft them could be of help.  Brave New World is a fiction dealing with that question.  Anthem is Ayn Rand's short fictional work dealing with the "I" vs "We" of society.  And Stranger In A Strange Land, by Heinlein, is a much longer classic dealing with the ills of society.  It would be a service to your quest if you read them all.

[Baruch]

Mr. Obvious: Think Psycho-Pass except it's an actually good society with a single AI.

Mike_Cl: I am overstressed as of late, so do mind that I may regret this. I also lost my counselor due to them moving to a different department and waiting for a new one now. So this is basically a mind dump of sorts. Except I legitimately think it might work.

gentle_dissident & Baruch: What now?

FDR was satan incarnate ... we must never do anything that FDR did, especially if it worked ;-)  They had CCC camps ... one of my grandfathers survived in one.  Bring them back, put people to work.  If the corporations won't hire the people we got, then the government needs to hire them and put them to work at what they are capable of.  Then tax the hell out to the rich and the corporations.  If the corporations want to only hire foreigners ... drop their registration in this country, or just nuke Delaware ... Apple becomes a Chinese company ... then tariff the heck out of anything they want to import to the US.  That is the way it was done the only way it can be done.  We are not responsible for employing all the people in China and India ... unless I get free little young Chinese/Indian ladies to clean my house and massage my back for free.  Oh, and Apple can pay all its taxes ... so we hold their board and executives hostage in "rape prison" until they pay up.  Most of the Fortune 500 need to be handled this way, including my employer ... not just Apple.

PS ... if you really want to move every job on the planet to China and India ... and replace all non-management jobs in N America with robots, you get the Morlock award.  Please read Time Machine also, while there is still time.