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The Debate Hall => Informal Debates => Topic started by: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 07:31:28 PM

Title: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 07:31:28 PM
As someone who lives in the US, circumcision is the norm and normally done before a male can give consent. It's often sighted as a good thing because many believe that the circumcised are cleaner than those who are not and by doing it to them when they are so young they won't remember the pain and will heal faster. The question is is it moral to alter someone's body without their consent in a way that is not a medical emergency and if not, why is it such a universally excepted practice here to the point that many parents must specifically tell doctors NOT to do it (and even then it could be done anyway)? Is there a positive side to circumcision without consent or a negative side to leaving it untouched? Are motivations religiously driven or driven by society? Should it be allowed as an option for anyone, only those of specific faiths which require it, or not at all?

Originally I was on the side saying it should be done. Then, I talked to men of both groups (friends, online friends, the 2 men I've dated, and even my dad!) and found that it had a negative impact on them. The older ones found that they were more likely to have bedroom difficulties if they had been circumcised than those who hadn't. They were less sensitive in general. I even spoke to a man who was angry at his parents for allowing it had happened to him without his consent and hoped he would one day be able to have it replaced in a sense. Some men said it was probably cleaner and women liked how it looked because the natural ones looked kinda weird (societal norms I guess), but the negative outweighed the positive especially for the older ones. The only person I talked to who believed it should be mandatory was a female nurse who said in the nursing home environment the circumcised ones were easier and you didn't have to worry about forgetting to roll it back in place and cut off circulation to it. I will admit that all I've said is anecdotal, but it bothers me as a woman who wants to have kids and I would love to hear valid points from both sides.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 07:47:47 PM
I don't approve of it, I think it's an unethical medical practice. Immoral? Never thought about it as immoral, but maybe, yeah.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 07:51:20 PM
Incidentally, I am lucky enough to have a friend who was circumcised as an adult, and I was able to ask him about his experience with it on both sides of the fence. He did it for religious reasons, so he is obviously quite in favor of it. He says the sexual response is different but equal.

I have read a few publications that confirm that some sexually transmitted infections are transmitted more easily by men who are not circumcised, and that some intact men have issues with microbial balanitis. I don't really agree that this justifies the routine circumcision of babies though.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 07:54:35 PM
Theres no hygiene advantage that cannot be achieved by simply washing yourself regularly.

The only other advantage is that, at least in America, women are so used to seeing a circumcised penis that you might run into those who simply find the foreskin "gross". Could become an issue for your son if the girl he likes wont go near him because he isn't circumcised. Then again if shes that hung up on it maybe shes not the right girl.

In my experience the majority of women don't seem to give a shit as long as you are keeping it clean.

Beyond those two points theres really no other advantage I can think of. Someone once said to me that it reduces instances of penile cancer. I think that kind of cancer is already pretty unusual, but I also have a problem with the logic of cutting off a piece of the body to keep from developing a cancer associated with it. Shall we do pre-emptive hysterectomies too? Beat breast cancer today with mandatory hysterectomies!

Yeah not so much.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:00:35 PM
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 07:54:35 PM
Theres no hygiene advantage that cannot be achieved by simply washing yourself regularly.

The only other advantage is that, at least in America, women are so used to seeing a circumcised penis that you might run into those who simply find the foreskin "gross". Could become an issue for your son if the girl he likes wont go near him because he isn't circumcised. Then again if shes that hung up on it maybe shes not the right girl.

In my experience the majority of women don't seem to give a shit as long as you are keeping it clean.

Beyond those two points theres really no other advantage I can think of. Someone once said to me that it reduces instances of penile cancer. I think that kind of cancer is already pretty unusual, but I also have a problem with the logic of cutting off a piece of the body to keep from developing a cancer associated with it. Shall we do pre-emptive hysterectomies too? Beat breast cancer today with mandatory hysterectomies!

Yeah not so much.
I have heard a lot of women say this. It makes me sad. The most common reason I hear for doing it is that they want their kid's penis to look like Dad's. I am a woman, so I don't know a lot about the psychology of that. How important is that to boys?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 08:02:13 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:00:35 PM
I have heard a lot of women say this. It makes me sad. The most common reason I hear for doing it is that they want their kid's penis to look like Dad's. I am a woman, so I don't know a lot about the psychology of that. How important is that to boys?

Sorry, not sure what you're referring to. How important is what to boys?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:10:01 PM
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 08:02:13 PM
Sorry, not sure what you're referring to. How important is what to boys?
Their penis being the same as Dad's. The men in my family have had their sons circumcised for that reason, so their boys don't feel weird because their penis is not the same.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:10:01 PM
Their penis being the same as Dad's. The men in my family have had their sons circumcised for that reason, so their boys don't feel weird because their penis is not the same.

Oh heh. Honestly that strikes me as super weird. I mean what would you think if I told you that I wanted my daughter's pussy to be just like her moms? Wouldn't you be calling the police or something?

I dont think boys care at all if their penis is like their dad's. Especially not if it means having a piece of themselves cut off to achieve the effect.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:23:46 PM
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 08:15:55 PM
Oh heh. Honestly that strikes me as super weird. I mean what would you think if I told you that I wanted my daughter's pussy to be just like her moms? Wouldn't you be calling the police or something?

I dont think boys care at all if their penis is like their dad's. Especially not if it means having a piece of themselves cut off to achieve the effect.
Well that's what I thought! But I don't know all the secrets about growing up a boy, so what do I know.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: AkiraTheFighter on April 14, 2016, 08:25:24 PM
I think it is unfair to do it before they have a say on weather or not they want it. Would I put it up there as being immoral? Yes. And while I don't speak for everyone I myself have an Uncircumcised penis. And I have yet to get an infection from it. Granted my mom thought me from small to always wash it when I bathe, so that might have a part to play in it. BTW with all the guys I've dated, all of them found it sexy and was jelly of it actually. I think it's cuz I can dock. XD

My dad on the other hand had a different story about his. He was uncircumcised until he was around 40 years of age. Somehow he teared it and never went to a doctor to see about it, so it got infected and this resulted in him having to get it circumcised. Whats worse is that he was diabetic so not seeing about it was a bad move on his part. So he was lucky.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 08:26:00 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:23:46 PM
Well that's what I thought! But I don't know all the secrets about growing up a boy, so what do I know.

There aren't a whole lot of secrets to growing up as a boy. We like food and games. Eventually we like girls. End of story.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on April 14, 2016, 08:44:20 PM
As with anything else that isn't medically necessary, it should only be done with the consent of the patient. If the patient cannot consent, then you don't do it. A lot of parents in America don't seem to understand this concept, sadly. (Although that may explain the rampant anti-abortion sentiment.)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on April 14, 2016, 09:18:22 PM
Meh, I really have a hard time seeing the uproar one way or another. I was, but as the majority it never bothered me. I have seen a couple that were not and meh… Sometimes I think that some make a lot of noise over something that is really not a lot of noise. But that is me. I have larger things to be pissy about and yes, I would have had my son done if I had one, and yes I would have not opposed a grandson from having it done, but I would not argue over it, at all. If I was asked, "this is what I think"…if I was not asked, I would not offer.  I would not spend the effort to argue about it…that is how much I care.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 09:23:31 PM
I think you'll find that men are divided on this issue according to whether or not they themselves are circumcised. No man wants to think of their own penis as being inferior.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 10:15:33 PM
I have to say, I'm really enjoying this conversation. Everyone is bring up some great relative points. I love how Nonsense i put it saying that men are divided depending on how they themselves look. I really wish that the procedure had a minimum age it could be preformed unless it was done for a medically necessary reason or (maybe) if a parent was Jewish or one of the religions that REQUIRE it (not encourage or are neutral about). Otherwise, they can wait until the age of consent (18 or older) and if they want it done, they can get it done and if not, they get to stay intact. After all, you can't uncut a foreskin. ;)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 11:19:49 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 10:15:33 PM
I have to say, I'm really enjoying this conversation. Everyone is bring up some great relative points. I love how Nonsense i put it saying that men are divided depending on how they themselves look. I really wish that the procedure had a minimum age it could be preformed unless it was done for a medically necessary reason or (maybe) if a parent was Jewish or one of the religions that REQUIRE it (not encourage or are neutral about). Otherwise, they can wait until the age of consent (18 or older) and if they want it done, they can get it done and if not, they get to stay intact. After all, you can't uncut a foreskin. ;)

I think its worth pointing out that if we wait until guys are 18 and let them decide, probably not very many guys would elect to have it done. I bet the practice would die out rather quickly if we left it up to the guy.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on April 14, 2016, 11:42:56 PM
Yes, the wonderful parents I love and care about were so morally bankrupt they had me snipped. OH THE SHAME!  THE  DEGRADATION!  THE HUMILIATING FEELINGS!
On the other hand (no pun intended...Ok, it was intended) I rather like my pecker and still love my folks  as morally corrupted as they were.. But by GOD they weren't litter bugs and too immoral to burn houses, villages, women and children! 
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 12:50:09 AM
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 11:19:49 PM
I think its worth pointing out that if we wait until guys are 18 and let them decide, probably not very many guys would elect to have it done. I bet the practice would die out rather quickly if we left it up to the guy.
Then again, some guys get their junk pierced, so it would probably still exist even if it's to a lesser degree.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Shukhov on April 15, 2016, 02:18:34 AM
Considering that it is done without consent of person being circumcised I think it is wrong. It's not vaccination, it's just religious practice which may or may not have some upsides so I see no reasons for doing it.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: PickelledEggs on April 15, 2016, 02:35:08 AM
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 11:19:49 PM
I think its worth pointing out that if we wait until guys are 18 and let them decide, probably not very many guys would elect to have it done. I bet the practice would die out rather quickly if we left it up to the guy.
Isn't that the point?

And yeah. Some women think it's weird, but that is also because in societies where circumcision is the norm, by default, it leaves people with uncircumcised dicks as the abnorma, aka "weird". And weird grosses people out.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 15, 2016, 02:45:20 AM
Uncut and glad for it. No scalpel coming anywhere near to my junk or that of my kids when i have them.
It has no benefits this day and age, perhaps once it did. But if it doesn't now, i'd rather keep al blades away from my pecker.

That said, i'm not sure i'd argue it immoral for most parents. While it is a Remnant of a bygone age born from religion and tradition, i imagine many don't see it that way. Call it ignorance, but i think many buy into The idea that it's The healthy thing to do. Even if it isn't, if you truly believe that and act in The bestwil of someone who can't make that decision yet, i don't think you can call it immoral.
If you, incorrectly, believe there to be only upsides to circumcission and only risk and downsides to not having it done, would it not be immoral not to do it and protect your Son from Harm?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 03:11:15 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 15, 2016, 02:35:08 AM
Isn't that the point?

And yeah. Some women think it's weird, but that is also because in societies where circumcision is the norm, by default, it leaves people with uncircumcised dicks as the abnorma, aka "weird". And weird grosses people out.
Agreed. When you really stop to think about it, we have this thing happening every day that everyone considers normal that is actually an immoral act. That's not to say all men dislike it or even think about it, but at the very least they should have been consulted before they had their bodies permanently altered. It is no different than if parents started cutting off part of their babies' left ear because Vincent Van Gosh did it.

@Mr.Obvious Then again, there have been plenty of societal norms that have later been deemed bad, unhealthy, or even immoral. The fact that the medical community pushes for it here and can even do it at times without asking the permission of the parents shows it to be immoral as well. A doctor wouldn't chop off a kid's little toe just because a parent wanted it gone, so why are the chopping off foreskins?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 15, 2016, 04:43:35 AM
Oh don't get me wrong. I want this practice gone, at least in this forced, almost mandatory way. All i'm saying is that i wouldn't deem an uninformed, ignorant decision an immoral one for lacking insight. There is a clear right and wrong here. But morality is based on perception of what we think is reality, not The full reality itself, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 04:56:09 AM
Yes it does. I'm just saying that that makes what the medical staff is doing immoral because they are well educated people who should put their foot down on the matter. By endorsing and outright encouraging it, they are causing laypeople to believe that it is the correct thing to do. If they can't refused to do it or actively disagree, they could at least discouraged parents from doing it. I think the numbers would go down then.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Baruch on April 15, 2016, 07:06:50 AM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 10:15:33 PM
I have to say, I'm really enjoying this conversation. Everyone is bring up some great relative points. I love how Nonsense i put it saying that men are divided depending on how they themselves look. I really wish that the procedure had a minimum age it could be preformed unless it was done for a medically necessary reason or (maybe) if a parent was Jewish or one of the religions that REQUIRE it (not encourage or are neutral about). Otherwise, they can wait until the age of consent (18 or older) and if they want it done, they can get it done and if not, they get to stay intact. After all, you can't uncut a foreskin. ;)

In ancient times, some Jewish men, had a foreskin reattached (obviously from a fresh donor male).  No anesthetic.  This circumcision made more sense in ancient times ... people didn't have much opportunity to wash regularly.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Baruch on April 15, 2016, 07:09:26 AM
Quote from: Mermaid on April 14, 2016, 08:00:35 PM
I have heard a lot of women say this. It makes me sad. The most common reason I hear for doing it is that they want their kid's penis to look like Dad's. I am a woman, so I don't know a lot about the psychology of that. How important is that to boys?

Didn't get to see my dad's junk very often, but while we were both circumcised, we weren't matching ... his was much larger than mine when I was 5 years old ;-)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: stromboli on April 15, 2016, 10:50:28 AM
Had a discussion with a Urologist about it about 6 years ago. He said it was an unnecessary operation and in an adult, quite painful. He had never personally seen a health reason to perform one.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 15, 2016, 11:51:39 AM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 04:56:09 AM
Yes it does. I'm just saying that that makes what the medical staff is doing immoral because they are well educated people who should put their foot down on the matter. By endorsing and outright encouraging it, they are causing laypeople to believe that it is the correct thing to do. If they can't refused to do it or actively disagree, they could at least discouraged parents from doing it. I think the numbers would go down then.

Oh, Well i was just talking about The parents.
I have to ask though; do doctors really, ActiveLy encourage this practice where you live? I can't relate because it is not being encouraged where i'm from. If it is really ActiveLy encouraged by docs; yeah that shit Should stop.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 12:05:45 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 15, 2016, 11:51:39 AM
Oh, Well i was just talking about The parents.
I have to ask though; do doctors really, ActiveLy encourage this practice where you live? I can't relate because it is not being encouraged where i'm from. If it is really ActiveLy encouraged by docs; yeah that shit Should stop.
As it is often done automatically unless the parents tell the doctor specifically not to, I thing I can safely say it's encouraged. The very fact that it's the standard speaks volumes. There are even instances where the parent told them not to and they did it anyway!
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 15, 2016, 12:12:07 PM
Luckily for me, I was a second son.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: gentle_dissident on April 15, 2016, 12:24:51 PM
My circumcised unit is very sensitive. It literally just takes a breeze. I spent an abnormal amount of time, starting around 4, thinking of sexuality. I wonder if it's part of the brew that made my mind so sexual that it was difficult to study and learn.

I don't remember being upset about being snipped. However, I cannot rule out its role in neurosis.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Baruch on April 15, 2016, 01:44:23 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 15, 2016, 12:12:07 PM
Luckily for me, I was a second son.

Ah my boy, the oldest son inherits, the second son gets to enter the priesthood ;-)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 02:16:03 PM
Quote from: stromboli on April 15, 2016, 10:50:28 AM
Had a discussion with a Urologist about it about 6 years ago. He said it was an unnecessary operation and in an adult, quite painful. He had never personally seen a health reason to perform one.
The fact that it's quite painful when done to someone who can vocalize how it feels to them really proves my point.

If I understood what I read correctly on the subject, the first recorded instance of it was in Egypt and it was preformed as a right of passage for Egyptian boys who were transitioning into manhood. Perhaps the freed Jewish slaves absorbed the practice into their own culture and eventually lowered the age?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: stromboli on April 15, 2016, 02:25:26 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 02:16:03 PM
The fact that it's quite painful when done to someone who can vocalize how it feels to them really proves my point.

If I understood what I read correctly on the subject, the first recorded instance of it was in Egypt and it was preformed as a right of passage for Egyptian boys who were transitioning into manhood. Perhaps the freed Jewish slaves absorbed the practice into their own culture and eventually lowered the age?

Good point. I can state with some confidence that given the option of having themselves circumsised as an adult, the numbers would be far lower. The Urologist pointed out to me that the circumcision isn't the issue so much as the pain involved afterward in the healing process. Given that men are sensitive about undue pain in that area, knowing the whole story would be less likely to have it done. You would have to have a pretty strong motive to go through that.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: RCnal on April 15, 2016, 03:59:58 PM
Well, I'm very very happy with my no hassle and smooth shaft. However, looking at the actual issue, I'm not sure I'm willing to try to make a call to tell people this is good or not. I will say, I don't know a single guy who complains they got snipped.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 15, 2016, 06:55:39 PM
Quote from: Baruch on April 15, 2016, 01:44:23 PM
Ah my boy, the oldest son inherits, the second son gets to enter the priesthood ;-)
I got to keep my foreskin.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: marom1963 on April 15, 2016, 07:37:47 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 07:31:28 PM
As someone who lives in the US, circumcision is the norm and normally done before a male can give consent. It's often sighted as a good thing because many believe that the circumcised are cleaner than those who are not and by doing it to them when they are so young they won't remember the pain and will heal faster. The question is is it moral to alter someone's body without their consent in a way that is not a medical emergency and if not, why is it such a universally excepted practice here to the point that many parents must specifically tell doctors NOT to do it (and even then it could be done anyway)? Is there a positive side to circumcision without consent or a negative side to leaving it untouched? Are motivations religiously driven or driven by society? Should it be allowed as an option for anyone, only those of specific faiths which require it, or not at all?

Originally I was on the side saying it should be done. Then, I talked to men of both groups (friends, online friends, the 2 men I've dated, and even my dad!) and found that it had a negative impact on them. The older ones found that they were more likely to have bedroom difficulties if they had been circumcised than those who hadn't. They were less sensitive in general. I even spoke to a man who was angry at his parents for allowing it had happened to him without his consent and hoped he would one day be able to have it replaced in a sense. Some men said it was probably cleaner and women liked how it looked because the natural ones looked kinda weird (societal norms I guess), but the negative outweighed the positive especially for the older ones. The only person I talked to who believed it should be mandatory was a female nurse who said in the nursing home environment the circumcised ones were easier and you didn't have to worry about forgetting to roll it back in place and cut off circulation to it. I will admit that all I've said is anecdotal, but it bothers me as a woman who wants to have kids and I would love to hear valid points from both sides.
I was circumcised, when I was born. I have never given it a thought. I know that my brother-in-law had to be circumcised as an adult because he kept getting infections underneath his foreskin that were endangering the head of his penis and spreading to his bladder. So, there he was, a man in his mid-thirties, having to undergo circumcision.  I know another man who had to be circumcised as an adult because his foreskin had lost its elasticity and had become so painful upon erection that he could not have sex any more. So, removal of the foreskin is not necessarily an evil thing ... I've never missed it. In fact, I never knew that I had had one until I was told. I have no scar. Whoever did my surgery did a beautiful job of it ... Yes, I've heard of the botch jobs. Shame that, but that's the same for any procedure - not the procedure's fault, but the surgeon's fault. Male circumcision is not the same evil thing that female circumcision is - it's not the removal of the very organ of sexual pleasure. Would my penis have been more sensitive to the rubbing of sexual encounter? I don't know. Do I care? No. Sex takes place in the mind, really - otherwise, it's really just rubbing body parts together.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: RCnal on April 15, 2016, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: marom1963 on April 15, 2016, 07:37:47 PM
I was circumcised, when I was born. I have never given it a thought. I know that my brother-in-law had to be circumcised as an adult because he kept getting infections underneath his foreskin that were endangering the head of his penis and spreading to his bladder. So, there he was, a man in his mid-thirties, having to undergo circumcision.  I know another man who had to be circumcised as an adult because his foreskin had lost its elasticity and had become so painful upon erection that he could not have sex any more. So, removal of the foreskin is not necessarily an evil thing ... I've never missed it. In fact, I never knew that I had had one until I was told. I have no scar. Whoever did my surgery did a beautiful job of it ... Yes, I've heard of the botch jobs. Shame that, but that's the same for any procedure - not the procedure's fault, but the surgeon's fault. Male circumcision is not the same evil thing that female circumcision is - it's not the removal of the very organ of sexual pleasure. Would my penis have been more sensitive to the rubbing of sexual encounter? I don't know. Do I care? No. Sex takes place in the mind, really - otherwise, it's really just rubbing body parts together.

Such a great view point. Wow!
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: marom1963 on April 15, 2016, 08:03:42 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 02:16:03 PM
The fact that it's quite painful when done to someone who can vocalize how it feels to them really proves my point.

If I understood what I read correctly on the subject, the first recorded instance of it was in Egypt and it was preformed as a right of passage for Egyptian boys who were transitioning into manhood. Perhaps the freed Jewish slaves absorbed the practice into their own culture and eventually lowered the age?
I know two adult men who have had to undergo circumcision. It's not fun. In fact, it was a miserable ordeal. They had to wear padding for weeks and weeks. They did not like talking about it, but even bathing was an ordeal - just raw, raw, raw - oozing raw. But it had to be done in both cases. In one case, it was due to constant infections underneath the foreskin; in the other case, it was due to a loss of elasticity in the foreskin, so that it would literally tear upon erection and cause agony ... I'm glad that my parents simply had me "cut" when I was born. I may have been miserable in my diapers for a few weeks, but I do not remember it at all.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on April 15, 2016, 08:13:50 PM
Frankly an "un" looks like a worm and who wants that comparison?  Case closed.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Baruch on April 15, 2016, 09:36:39 PM
African boys have it done, during the early teen right of passage.  The men take the boys out in the bush to teach them about manhood, and cut them with a dull pair of primitive scissors.  If you don't do it, you are ostracized from the tribe for being a coward.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: PickelledEggs on April 15, 2016, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 15, 2016, 08:13:50 PM
Frankly an "un" looks like a worm and who wants that comparison?  Case closed.
I do have to say, I do like the fact that my penis looks like it's wearing a little WWII helmet.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 11:19:01 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 15, 2016, 08:13:50 PM
Frankly an "un" looks like a worm and who wants that comparison?  Case closed.
To me, they look more like Mr. Snuffleupagus (the modern version) when soft. When hard, they look basically the same. As someone who was born in a place where circumcision is the norm, uncut penises look odd to you and most men/women born in the same environment. Go to a county where it's rare, and you are the odd one or the novelty with the names attached.

@marom1963
Why exactly was he getting infections I wonder? Did his wife have an asymptomatic case of Bacterial Vaginosis or Yeast Infection (yes, men can get them)? Was he not taught proper care and let bacteria grow? Was he simply susceptible? In any case, there are over the counter treatments and prescriptions just like when my pipes are on the fritz. You just have to know what to look for.

As far as your friend is concerned, his condition is quite rare. If it wasn't, the male population of Australia and the majority of Europe would be in a hell of a shape!
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: marom1963 on April 15, 2016, 11:29:11 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 11:19:01 PM
To me, they look more like Mr. Snuffleupagus (the modern version) when soft. When hard, they look basically the same. As someone who was born in a place where circumcision is the norm, uncut penises look odd to you and most men/women born in the same environment. Go to a county where it's rare, and you are the odd one or the novelty with the names attached.

@marom1963
Why exactly was he getting infections I wonder? Did his wife have an asymptomatic case of Bacterial Vaginosis or Yeast Infection (yes, men can get them)? Was he not taught proper care and let bacteria grow? Was he simply susceptible? In any case, there are over the counter treatments and prescriptions just like when my pipes are on the fritz. You just have to know what to look for.

As far as your friend is concerned, his condition is quite rare. If it wasn't, the male population of Australia and the majority of Europe would be in a hell of a shape!
Oh, I'm sure that the trouble w/the foreskin elasticity is quite rare. As for my brother-in-law, it was some sort of yeast infection, but my sister did not have it, didn't even catch it from him. And, yes, he'd always been very good about his hygiene ... I wasn't implying that men in general need to be circumcised as a matter of hygiene, no. Most men in the world are not circumcised. Even so, I don't see it as nearly the problem that female circumcision is. I don't think that male circumcision does nearly the harm.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 16, 2016, 03:08:23 AM
Just going to leave this here.

https://youtu.be/gCSWbTv3hng
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Baruch on April 16, 2016, 08:39:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDyocNyhrgg

Quack doctors are still with us, now with more science ;-)  Well at least thru 1950.  Two of my father's father's business partners were quack doctors.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on April 16, 2016, 09:17:19 AM
Hahahaha, penises are weird. But so are vaginas.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 16, 2016, 02:03:37 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 16, 2016, 03:08:23 AM
Just going to leave this here.
Love it! That video rocked XD
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 17, 2016, 02:28:06 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 15, 2016, 08:13:50 PM
Frankly an "un" looks like a worm and who wants that comparison?  Case closed.
My foreskin retracted completely when I was erect. Some of my girlfriends didn't even know I wasn't circumcised.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 17, 2016, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on April 16, 2016, 09:17:19 AM
Hahahaha, penises are weird. But so are vaginas.

Truer words...
:p
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Jason78 on April 17, 2016, 03:06:49 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 07:31:28 PM
Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?

Yes.  Cutting off part of a child that can't consent is wrong.   Why is this even a discussion?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Atheon on April 17, 2016, 03:20:55 PM
The child has no choice in this matter, and it is almost always medically unnecessary. So yes, it is unethical.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 17, 2016, 04:12:57 PM
Quote from: Jason78 on April 17, 2016, 03:06:49 PM
Yes.  Cutting off part of a child that can't consent is wrong.   Why is this even a discussion?
Because in the US where it's considered odd when you don't do it and in religions where it is required, people never really reflect on the morality of it. It's a problem that doesn't seem to be going away. I think it has a lot to do with men being afraid to admit it's wrong because they had it done as babies and admitting it's wrong is like him saying his dick was involuntary mutilated.

@Gawdzilla Sama
Exactly! Most people don't realize that. And all penises look weird soft, so what's the point of chopping stuff off?

Also damn you @Mr.Obvious for introducing me to Adam Explains Everything! I am now stuck in a vicious binge watching cycle O_O
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 17, 2016, 04:26:30 PM
No that was a BIG YES. I keep reading it immoral as MORAL when I first read it correctly.

I need coffee.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 17, 2016, 04:42:18 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 17, 2016, 04:26:30 PM
Yes.
I'm not sure why, but this made me laugh. No explanation, no reasoning, no siting or personal anecdotes. Just Yes with a period at the end. End of discussion. Love it XD
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on April 17, 2016, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: Jason78 on April 17, 2016, 03:06:49 PM
Yes.  Cutting off part of a child that can't consent is wrong.   Why is this even a discussion?

Tumors….Lipoma's…cyst's…warts…growths….deformities….diseases….cancers…..sure….let's make their choice paramount.

The world has not collapsed over cutting the skin off a penis…no doubt it is rather nonsensical, but it appears to be rather harmless when one looks at the history of humanity…compared to other cultural habits. Perhaps it will go off and die on its own, but i won't care one way or the other…nor spend a dime in the fight and I have already spent more energy typing this than I care.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on April 18, 2016, 12:50:31 AM
Quote from: aitm on April 17, 2016, 06:56:00 PM
Tumors….Lipoma's…cyst's…warts…growths….deformities….diseases….cancers…..sure….let's make their choice paramount.
I don't think anyone here is going to argue against circumcision to resolve serious medical issues.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 18, 2016, 04:21:54 AM
Quote from: Mermaid on April 16, 2016, 09:17:19 AM
Hahahaha, penises are weird. But so are vaginas.

Don't you think sometimes ours is a bit too much complicated? Or am I seein it this way because of the gender roles and standard norms?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 18, 2016, 04:36:33 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 18, 2016, 04:21:54 AM
Don't you think sometimes ours is a bit too much complicated? Or am I seein it this way because of the gender roles and standard norms?
I'd say vaginas win in the more complicated orgasm department at least as Penis is like tic tack toe while the Vagina is more like a rubix cube XD
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 18, 2016, 04:53:52 AM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 18, 2016, 04:36:33 AM
I'd say vaginas win in the more complicated orgasm department at least as Penis is like tic tack toe while the Vagina is more like a rubix cube XD

I lol'ed at Rubik's cube. But no I didn't mean the legendary orgasm capacity or the traditional opinion that it is hard to maintain that mechanism.

Vagina is a complicated organ, because it makes things very complicated very fast. It's too brutally honest and inflexible. You can train it, but can't rely on that training.

Vagina knows all the time. You catch up later. Doesn't matter how much heat you are in, she wants this one or that one and suddenly 'no I don't want that penis in me'. And it ends then and there. You don't get a thig, you still love the guy to bits. You are horny, hot for him. But no, her majesty just decided otherwise. The ugly thing is you get the whole thing when you look back after a time when everything already went through and wait for it...the cunt was right.

Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 18, 2016, 05:01:13 AM
OK, I first read the OP title correctly and said YES. Then I read the title incorrectly, thinking I made a mistake first time since it is a second language I always have that auto paranoia -reading moral instead of immoral- and changed it to NO. The YES was correct the first time.

So for the last time INFANT CIRCUMCISION IS IMMORAL! *pant *pant. :lol:
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: doorknob on April 18, 2016, 10:05:16 PM
I had my son circumcised because I thought it was cleaner. I didn't do any research on it at the time.

Now I regret it because I feel that circumcision is unnecessary.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on April 18, 2016, 10:57:43 PM
Quote from: doorknob on April 18, 2016, 10:05:16 PM
I had my son circumcised because I thought it was cleaner. I didn't do any research on it at the time.

Now I regret it because I feel that circumcision is unnecessary.
Well if it's any consolation, there are ways to grow the foreskin back, if you're willing to work for it. I don't know how sensitive a restored foreskin is compared to the one you're born with, though.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 19, 2016, 01:11:32 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on April 18, 2016, 10:57:43 PM
Well if it's any consolation, there are ways to grow the foreskin back, if you're willing to work for it. I don't know how sensitive a restored foreskin is compared to the one you're born with, though.

Wait... What?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on April 19, 2016, 01:32:05 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 19, 2016, 01:11:32 AM
Wait... What?
Yeah, I was surprised as well. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on April 19, 2016, 01:43:09 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on April 19, 2016, 01:32:05 AM
Yeah, I was surprised as well. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration)

Huh. Learn something new, be it odd, everyday.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Sal1981 on April 19, 2016, 11:25:24 AM
Yes.

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk

Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 20, 2016, 11:31:48 PM
Quote from: doorknob on April 18, 2016, 10:05:16 PM
I had my son circumcised because I thought it was cleaner. I didn't do any research on it at the time.

Now I regret it because I feel that circumcision is unnecessary.
Don't feel bad! It's part of the culture and it's not something we really think about because it's just something that's done in some places and in some religions. Breaking through that and having people actually think about it and reflect upon it is at its core the very purpose of this thread. :)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Jack89 on April 25, 2016, 10:11:46 AM
Why do people make such a fuss of over something like this?  I was circumcised and have no complaints.  If you weren't circumcised you likely don't have any complaints either.  This is another case of turning something that adversely affects only a very few into a controversy.  Is it immoral?  No, it's fine. 
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 25, 2016, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: Jack89 on April 25, 2016, 10:11:46 AM
Why do people make such a fuss of over something like this?  I was circumcised and have no complaints.  If you weren't circumcised you likely don't have any complaints either.  This is another case of turning something that adversely affects only a very few into a controversy.  Is it immoral?  No, it's fine.
It's not about rather or not doing it adversely affects the recipient as most men have no problems with it. It's about rather it's moral to preform elective body modifications on someone without their consent. Performing a life saving operation on someone too young to give consent is okay as it is done in their best interest, but the majority of circumcisions are done for aesthetics and tradition rather than actual medical need. It would be like removing the labia minora on female babies. Sure the effects other than appearance wouldn't be that noticeable, but it wouldn't be right to do without her okay at an age when she was competent enough to give real consent. I'm not against male circumcision any more than I am a man getting a Prince Albert, but I don't think either one should be done without they guy giving his okay first.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 25, 2016, 12:44:54 PM
It is immoral to make a decision for someone that will alter their anotomy permenantly when they can't make decision about it while there is no good reason to do so. Don't you think the very fact that there is no complaints from boths sides makes the act more ridiculous? And I am sure there must be men out there not happy with it. Add all that the most serious fact that this is being practised pretty badly and primitively around the world for religion, I say fuck it.

I haven't slept with an uncut man, the manfolk is cut around here. But the idea that some foreskin would play some negative role in what I feel to a man -sexually or otherwise- is pretty ridiculous too. May be I am old fashioned, dunno.



Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 25, 2016, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 25, 2016, 12:33:29 PM
It's about rather it's moral to preform elective body modifications on someone without their consent.

Exactly. This.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on April 25, 2016, 01:05:07 PM
Can we add puncturing holes in little girls ears so they be adorned with metal crap that women think looks "cute" but I think looks horrendous?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: marom1963 on April 25, 2016, 01:12:49 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 25, 2016, 01:05:07 PM
Can we add puncturing holes in little girls ears so they be adorned with metal crap that women think looks "cute" but I think looks horrendous?
I wouldn't do it, but it does get done, and it really is harmless. I've seen more than one little boy w/one earlobe pierced, by the way ... Do you know - and it really makes me nauseous- about this new thing, putting hoops inside the earlobe? I saw a kid at my niece's graduation who had what looked like wagon wheels embedded in his earlobes. And he was a nice looking boy. I thought, gee, what job will you ever be able to get? Such holes will never close. Plastic surgery would needed. Horrible.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 25, 2016, 02:04:23 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 25, 2016, 01:05:07 PM
Can we add puncturing holes in little girls ears so they be adorned with metal crap that women think looks "cute" but I think looks horrendous?

Honestly there's no good reason for piercing the ears anymore. These days anything can be mounted on a clip.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 25, 2016, 06:01:29 PM
I always felt jealous as a teen that other girls had pierced ears and I couldn't because my body rejected them. I tried several times too and they all closed up quickly and got infected as well. One time when I was nearly 20, I stuck with it for months dealing with infection all the time when it finally stuck. I thought I finally had pierced ears, but my ears would get red and irritated whenever I tried to wear earnings even years after. I found out just recently that while nickel is a common allergy, some people react badly to metal piercings in general (some even to things like white gold) especially if they're put in with a gun (which can't be properly sterilized). It's rare that I ever miss not wearing earnings now, but now that I know why I had problems I might buy some earrings that are safe for me for special occasions. Who knows? Maybe I'll get a tasteful nostril piercing when I turn 40. ;)
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on April 25, 2016, 07:58:39 PM
My dislike of pierced ears is purely selfish. When my kid was 2 I loved to nibble on her ear lobes…..I told the wife absolutely not. So she had her bitch aunt do it when they took her to the mall. I was so goddamned pissed off……

and now, the grandkid was 3 and those little earlobes were so nibbly….fucking bitches ruined those too……yeah I like little girl ear lobes…go fuck yourself!
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 26, 2016, 03:20:22 AM
Quote from: aitm on April 25, 2016, 01:05:07 PM
Can we add puncturing holes in little girls ears so they be adorned with metal crap that women think looks "cute" but I think looks horrendous?

Definitely.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 26, 2016, 03:28:15 AM
Quote from: aitm on April 25, 2016, 07:58:39 PM
My dislike of pierced ears is purely selfish. When my kid was 2 I loved to nibble on her ear lobes…..I told the wife absolutely not. So she had her bitch aunt do it when they took her to the mall. I was so goddamned pissed off……

and now, the grandkid was 3 and those little earlobes were so nibbly….fucking bitches ruined those too……yeah I like little girl ear lobes…go fuck yourself!

They had her ears pierced when she was a toddler? :sad2:
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 26, 2016, 04:16:20 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 26, 2016, 03:28:15 AM
They had her ears pierced when she was a toddler? :sad2:
It's actually very common in some cultures. I find it a little odd myself. It's not as massive an invasion as removing the foreskin in my opinion (unless it's the earlobe stretching kind), but it's still cosmetic alterations without consent. I've honestly never thought of the moral implications of it until now.

@aitm
What your spouse did was wrong on so many levels. She got your daughter's ears pierced against your wishes behind your back, she had it done at a mall where the staff is usually under trained and use a piercing gun (which is extremely unsterile and pushes tissue to the side instead of creating a hole which can cause problems with the hole later on in life), and she did it when your daughter was too young to give consent. It would have been different if she was a teen begging for piercings and she got them from a trained professional piercer (they are trained in anatomy, have minimum of 1 year internship, and use sterile needles and equipment and medical grade autoclave).
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on April 26, 2016, 09:01:43 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 26, 2016, 03:28:15 AM
They had her ears pierced when she was a toddler? :sad2:

Oh yeah, and of course about three days later she slipped in the tub and hit her ear on the side of the tub and it bled like crazy and she was screaming to take it out......yeah...I was really pissed then.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 26, 2016, 01:43:38 PM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 26, 2016, 04:16:20 AM
It's actually very common in some cultures. I find it a little odd myself.

It's in the one I live, but rare in our community. Mostly the conservative, low educated class here does that.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 26, 2016, 01:45:35 PM
Quote from: aitm on April 26, 2016, 09:01:43 AM
Oh yeah, and of course about three days later she slipped in the tub and hit her ear on the side of the tub and it bled like crazy and she was screaming to take it out......yeah...I was really pissed then.

Well... All I can offer is, 'don't worry she won't remember it'.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: gentle_dissident on April 26, 2016, 03:43:42 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/06/baby-dies-circumcision-ritual-herpes_n_1322420.html

"The boy is the second New York area infant in recent years to die from complications related to the Orthodox Jewish ritual of metzitzah b’peh, during which “the mohel places his mouth on the freshly circumcised penis to draw blood away from the cut,” according to the New York City Department of Heath."
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Nonsensei on April 26, 2016, 04:21:16 PM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on April 26, 2016, 03:43:42 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/06/baby-dies-circumcision-ritual-herpes_n_1322420.html

"The boy is the second New York area infant in recent years to die from complications related to the Orthodox Jewish ritual of metzitzah b’peh, during which “the mohel places his mouth on the freshly circumcised penis to draw blood away from the cut,” according to the New York City Department of Heath."

Just when you thought circumcision couldn't get any stranger.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 26, 2016, 06:56:38 PM
Yes. Ritualized circumcision is the most bizarre. In any other circumstance if someone said part of their job involved sucking the blood out of babies penises, they would get thrown in jail so fast their head would spin, but under the umbrella of religion they must be allowed to preform the unsterile practice on an unconsenting (and quite frankly unwilling) recipient.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Baruch on April 26, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
Which is why your mom, who used a pin, to get a splinter out of you, should be in jail, for practicing medicine without a license.

Mind you, I would recommend sterile procedures for everything, including circumcision.  Tradition doesn't trump sterile procedure.

If someone used their mouth, to suck a wound, because they didn't have proper medical supplies, would you take it as a perverse sex act?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Bluewind on April 27, 2016, 04:36:12 AM
The problem isn't about using unsterile procedures in emergency or acute situation. This is less like a parent preforming first aid and more like a parent slicing open their child's arm and sucking on the wound because it's a tradition. If they have to cut a chunk off their kid because it's part of their religion, it should be done as clean and sterile as possible. It not only protects the child, but the person preforming it as well. Plenty of people have no clue they have an STD and can pass it on to their child as he or she is being born. As many children and the person preforming the surgery must see, the probability of contracting some type of disease is very high even if it is a minor one. The practitioner might be asymptomatic because of being an adult, but babies are going to be very susceptible to complications. This is a non emergency body modification preformed on babies which I find immoral even when done by a doctor, but to do it in a way that is so outright unsafe when a safe alternative is available it the equivalent of going to a professional piercer who uses a thumb tac she found in her drawer.

Also, I was pointing out the ridiculous of the practice. If there was no religious context to sucking the blood off a minor's genitals, that person would be in huge trouble with the law rather it was part of a tradition or not. It wouldn't matter if the person didn't enjoy it. Hell, you could just replace the religion with a pagan one or satanism and everybody would be losing their minds over the fact that it was allowed to happen.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 11:13:54 AM
None of my boys were circumcised.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: pr126 on July 29, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
Quote from: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 11:13:54 AM
None of my boys were circumcised.
Hey there Reggie, haven't seen you in years. How are you doing?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: pr126 on July 29, 2016, 11:30:06 AM
Not a word on FGM?  (http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html)

I know, I will be slapped down for mentioning it.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: aitm on July 29, 2016, 12:14:17 PM
Quote from: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 11:13:54 AM
None of my boys were circumcised.

Well, Hello Reggie, always an honor when you stop by and visit with us.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Sal1981 on July 30, 2016, 12:30:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCSWbTv3hng
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Shiranu on July 30, 2016, 02:14:36 AM
For the original question; I don't think so, no.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Mermaid on July 30, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
Quote from: pr126 on July 29, 2016, 11:30:06 AM
Not a word on FGM?  (http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html)

I know, I will be slapped down for mentioning it.
Why would you be slapped down?
I see them as very different issues though.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: stromboli on July 30, 2016, 11:14:14 PM
Six of one half of the other. Think its the parent's decision.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Shiranu on July 30, 2016, 11:16:50 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on July 30, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
Why would you be slapped down?
I see them as very different issues though.

Completely different. That is more like cutting off the head of the penis for the sole purpose of making sure the man couldn't have as much sexual pleasure (in the culture pr is talking about, anyways).

That said, there are Christians and pagans who do the same and far worse that I don't know the details on as well... the Christians I would assume is also for puritan reasons, the pagan I have seen various reasons between tribes, from sewing it shut to keep demons in to "its fashionable" in other more developed countries.

FGM as we address it is just the clitorectomy ( spelling?), but all sorts of FGM are extremely common across central Africa, and have been long before the Abrahamic religions arrived.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 02:58:51 AM
where do you get your morals?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 03:05:49 AM


Quote from: Nonsensei on April 14, 2016, 07:54:35 PM
Theres no hygiene advantage that cannot be achieved by simply washing yourself regularly.

The only other advantage is that, at least in America, women are so used to seeing a circumcised penis that you might run into those who simply find the foreskin "gross". Could become an issue for your son if the girl he likes wont go near him because he isn't circumcised. Then again if shes that hung up on it maybe shes not the right girl.

In my experience the majority of women don't seem to give a shit as long as you are keeping it clean.

Beyond those two points theres really no other advantage I can think of. Someone once said to me that it reduces instances of penile cancer. I think that kind of cancer is already pretty unusual, but I also have a problem with the logic of cutting off a piece of the body to keep from developing a cancer associated with it. Shall we do pre-emptive hysterectomies too? Beat breast cancer today with mandatory hysterectomies!

Yeah not so much.

1. I here the "just wash it" remark about zits and that is referred to as false. why or how would it be true for any other bacterial issue? not saying circumcisions would be the right response, just unclear by yours.

2. I'd agree with the gross comment. I do believe America had circumcisions standard by hospitals after ww1 or maybe a little before?

3. hysterectomies are not same as circumcision and you know it is not.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Jason78 on September 11, 2016, 11:16:53 AM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 14, 2016, 07:31:28 PM
Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?

For the last time...  "Yes!".

It's wrong to perform unnecessary surgery on someone that can't consent to it.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Sal1981 on September 19, 2016, 06:13:26 AM
Quote from: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 02:58:51 AM
where do you get your morals?

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Social experience.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: randomvim on September 19, 2016, 10:39:26 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 19, 2016, 06:13:26 AM
Social experience.
That dictates how we all should act?
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on September 19, 2016, 11:22:59 PM
Quote from: randomvim on September 19, 2016, 10:39:26 PM
That dictates how we all should act?
There is no way we should act, but some actions have better results than others. Experience is a good way to figure out what those are.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: TrueStory on September 20, 2016, 01:56:02 PM
This is one topic that i have changed my mind on because of this forum.  There was a former member hell bent on no circumcision who made some pretty compelling arguments.  I'm circumcised and if I have a son I will not do that to him even though i'm quite happy with myself.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 10:31:51 AM
Quote from: Bluewind on April 15, 2016, 12:05:45 PM
As it is often done automatically unless the parents tell the doctor specifically not to, I thing I can safely say it's encouraged. The very fact that it's the standard speaks volumes. There are even instances where the parent told them not to and they did it anyway!

At MY time, it was consider hygenic and non-controversial.  Can't say I've missed my foreskin...
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: OldFaithful on January 29, 2017, 05:07:12 PM
Don't cut a babys dickclit! God made it that way for us to enjoy, not hurt.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on January 30, 2017, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: OldFaithful on January 29, 2017, 05:07:12 PM
Don't cut a babys dickclit! God made it that way for us to enjoy, not hurt.
Phrasing.
Title: Re: Is Infant Circumcision Immoral?
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2017, 08:06:54 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 30, 2017, 08:26:25 AM
Phrasing.

That's a societal habit more than a religious one these days.